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Update: Boy murdered in gang attack
9:10am Friday 4th July 2008
Comments (118) Have your say »
A 16-year-boy knifed repeatedly in a gang attack yesterday afternoon died in hospital this morning.
Police launched a murder inquiry after Shakilus Townsend, from Tanners Hill, Deptford, was killed after being chased by at least six hooded and masked youths.
“This is another senseless incident in which a young life has been taken away by a knife."
Detective Chief Inspector Cliff Lyons
He was knocked to the ground and knifed in the chest multiple times in Beluah Crescent, Thornton Heath at around 1.46pm yesterday afternoon.
Shakilus was found by police and the London Ambulance Service suffering from stab wounds in a doorway to a block of flats after being called a member of the public.
Robert Temple, 72, an ex-army medic, was already at the scene and treating the teen before the emergency services arrived.
He said: "It was horrific. The poor lad was covered in blood and crying."
Mr Temple said a blade, between four and five inches long, was handed to police after being found in bushes nearby.
Shakilus was rushed to St George's Hospital, Tooting, where he was pronounced dead shortly after midnight.
Although he has not been officially identified police say they are sure of identity and his family has been informed of his death.
A postmortem examination will be held in due course.
Dee Bamina a 35-year-old student and mum of a seven-year-old boy helped comfort Shakilus before he was taken to hospital.
She said: "He was saying: 'I don't want to die, I want my mum.'
"My son has gone to school this morning very frightened. I'm trying to be strong but it's not easy."
Detective Chief Inspector Cliff Lyons, who is leading the murder investigation, said: "This is another senseless incident in which a young life has been taken away by a knife. Given that this happened outside a block of flats in broad daylight, I am certain there are people who will have witnessed this murder.
"I would urge those people to come forward and speak to the police, to help us bring justice to the Shakilus's family and friends.
Eyewitness, Richard Higgins, 17, was shaken by the ordeal
He said: "The first thing I saw was loads of blood. I heard the boy crying for his mum over and over again. Even when the ambulance came he was trying to take off the oxygen mask and speak to the ambulance crew to tell them to call his mum."
Mr Higgins added: "He was tiny and looked terrified."
Residents described how a group of five to six black males and a mixed race female, dressed in hooded tops with scarves and balaclavas chased the boy through around Beluah Crescent on pushbikes.
Residents said they heard the youths shouting "Get him, he's over there" before chasing him down outside a block of flats. They pounced on the teenager stabbing him four times in the side and once in the centre of his chest.
Retired Peter Gibbs, 60, said: "I have asked for more patrols and they never listen. There was as shooting around here last time and nobody came.
"It's a disgrace. I've seen gangs around and I am afraid. I want the police to do something about it but nobody helps. I feel terrified and so do the other residents. It's just not good enough."
Malcolm Wicks, Labour MP for Croydon North, said: "This is yet another brutal assault, another tragic loss of a young life. My thoughts at this time are with the family and friends of the young man who has died.
"We certainly need to understand the reasons for this sad spate of stabbings, but there can be no excuses. It must be made clear that carrying a knife in suspicious circumstances will lead to a prison sentence."
- Anyone with information should can contact police on 020 8721 4205 or Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.
- To read a description of the suspects click here.
Your Say YourCroydon Guardian
T, says...
7:12pm Thu 3 Jul 08
Was told by police on the scene earlier that this is now a murder investigation.
Frank, South Croydon says...
8:17pm Thu 3 Jul 08
Reading Latoyas comment sums England up.
sro, thornton heath says...
8:44pm Thu 3 Jul 08
I live on the crescent and the police are still there. Its scary I thought tesco was close enough..so sorry to the boy..why do people need to do that
smc, heath says...
9:00pm Thu 3 Jul 08
it sums up south east london
A, Thornton Heath says...
10:37pm Thu 3 Jul 08
The police still have the area closed off, we were also told it was a murder investigation, if not I hope the boy is doing ok, whatever the circumstances.
X, Thornton Heath says...
12:23am Fri 4 Jul 08
I saw a gang of youths acting suspiciously about 1.35pm in the area just before the incident. I just found out about it and went to the Police at the scene. I told them I saw suspicious behaviour at 1.35pm and asked them what time the crime had happened in case it had nothing to do with the youths. Would you believe that not one of the four officers could tell me the time it happened. They suggested I find out by looking at the ITN website!!
Maybe if I'd been white they might have taken more notice - I guess to the Police this is just another black on black incident which will be all too soon forgotten....
Maybe if I'd been white they might have taken more notice - I guess to the Police this is just another black on black incident which will be all too soon forgotten....
mastermind, gipsy hill says...
12:53am Fri 4 Jul 08
i went past it twice today...
and i was there for a while speakin to police and to da guy from the daily mirror,
its crazy...
i dnno wot reason these ppl had to do that,
but no reason justifies killing sumone or trying to...
all these yungers need to grow up...
these young ppl dont get the chance to grow up and realise wot theyre doin is stupid...coz theyve got no one to tell them otherwise...the government needs to do sumfin.....
and i was there for a while speakin to police and to da guy from the daily mirror,
its crazy...
i dnno wot reason these ppl had to do that,
but no reason justifies killing sumone or trying to...
all these yungers need to grow up...
these young ppl dont get the chance to grow up and realise wot theyre doin is stupid...coz theyve got no one to tell them otherwise...the government needs to do sumfin.....
x, Thornton Heath says...
1:23am Fri 4 Jul 08
Mastermind,
You're 100% right there. But where are the parents? I saw the youths before they put on their masks and when I saw them my first thought was "what are they up to and why aren't they at school / college?". Do the parents know what these kids are up to?
Anyhow, I've now got through to the Police and told them what I saw before the incident - I know exactly where the gang was before the incident and what they were looking out for. More to the point, they were stupid enough to leave their masks off well before the incident and lots of people would have clocked them and I've told the Police exactly where they need to ask for more witnesses.
If anyone knows anything, tell the Police so we can stop this madness.
Even better, if the youths are reading this, turn yourself in as your going to get caught....
You're 100% right there. But where are the parents? I saw the youths before they put on their masks and when I saw them my first thought was "what are they up to and why aren't they at school / college?". Do the parents know what these kids are up to?
Anyhow, I've now got through to the Police and told them what I saw before the incident - I know exactly where the gang was before the incident and what they were looking out for. More to the point, they were stupid enough to leave their masks off well before the incident and lots of people would have clocked them and I've told the Police exactly where they need to ask for more witnesses.
If anyone knows anything, tell the Police so we can stop this madness.
Even better, if the youths are reading this, turn yourself in as your going to get caught....
a, bromley says...
1:35am Fri 4 Jul 08
i cant believe this. GOD please stop all this nonsense. People keep saying it is happening too much and it is but why isnt anything being done about it!? if u look suspicous, u get searched. if u r hanging around in a gang if u are wering a certain type of clothing or look suspicous or any sus[icous behaviour,- you get serched. theres no ethinc/racist thing about it!. and u have a knife, then u get life - thats it!. NO QUESTIONS ASKED. WHY ARE THERE NOT ENOUGH POLICE ON THE STREETS. NOT COMMUNITY ONES. PROPER ONES. EVEN MAYBE ARMED POLICE. ARMED POLICE PATROLS WOULD MAKE LONDON AND THE UK MUCH SAFER! NOT JUST ON STREETS, NEAR ESTATES TOO AND FLATS AND PARKS AND RESIDENTIAL AREAS WHERE ALL THIS HAPPNING. ARMED POLICE AND STOP AND SERCH WITH NO PAPER WORK OR HASSLES. IF U LOOK SUSPICOUS (U MAY BE HANGING AROUND IN A GROUP OF MALES MAYBE WEARING HOODIES) THAT COULD BE SUSPCOUS. U GET SERCHED. IT DOESNT MATTER IF THEY DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING. THEY ARE GOOD. IT DOESNT MEAN THEYRE NOT SALLOWED TO BE SERCHED. AFTER ALL THATS THE RESON FOR THE SERCH - TO SEE. PEOPLE SHOULD NOT GET MAD OR WORRIED ABOUT BEING SERCHED. AS LONG IT BE DONE IN THE CORRECT WAYS. AND NOT TO EMBARRAS OR OFFEND ANY ONE. ENOUGH ACTION IS NOT BEING TAKEN!
Mick, Sussex says...
2:49am Fri 4 Jul 08
It is more dangerous living in London than been a British soldier on the front line, in Iraq or Afghanistan.
xx, Tho Hth says...
8:31am Fri 4 Jul 08
This is what happens when successive governments support single parent families where the mother is 15/16yrs older than her offspring.
The offspring grows up ill-disciplined, disrespectful to all and sundry and ends up living in a 21st Century cess-pit.
Only when the Government is prepared to stand up and properly address this matter properly will things improve.
Until then youngsters will die.
The offspring grows up ill-disciplined, disrespectful to all and sundry and ends up living in a 21st Century cess-pit.
Only when the Government is prepared to stand up and properly address this matter properly will things improve.
Until then youngsters will die.
carly, london says...
8:43am Fri 4 Jul 08
xx I have to disagree with you, it isn't all single parent families that these children are coming from. I know many single mothers & young parents who raise their children alot better than some people as they want to prove the stereotype that you're talking about.
I think there is some truth in what you say but you cant stereotype everyone.
And this whole gang crap has gone too far but no one will do anything about it because the justice system is crap. If we stand up to these kids & give em a good slap like they deserve, we are the ones who get in trouble with it & if these kids get caught they get a slap on the wrist. They wont teach them that will encorage(sorry about the spelling) them cos they just got away with all sorts.
Its a no win situation, we stand up to em & we either get chucked in prison or stabbed ourselves.
The Government need to pull their finger out & help the poor police force. They get enough stick for being useless already so they need a hand
I think there is some truth in what you say but you cant stereotype everyone.
And this whole gang crap has gone too far but no one will do anything about it because the justice system is crap. If we stand up to these kids & give em a good slap like they deserve, we are the ones who get in trouble with it & if these kids get caught they get a slap on the wrist. They wont teach them that will encorage(sorry about the spelling) them cos they just got away with all sorts.
Its a no win situation, we stand up to em & we either get chucked in prison or stabbed ourselves.
The Government need to pull their finger out & help the poor police force. They get enough stick for being useless already so they need a hand
nik, thornton heath says...
9:12am Fri 4 Jul 08
A lot of these kids parents arnt available for their kids due to having to get full time jobs as soon as their kids turn 11!I am a single mum of 3 (i worked for 15 years then husband left before anyone says ive never worked a day in my life)Im dreading it when my youngest is 11 and i have to leave all 3 to their own devices...anything could happen if you expect children to act like adults.
I think a good way to get some of the kids off the streets is to bring back saturday/holiday work jobs for the youngsters...they learn the value of money and learn a little respect for those around them or else they dont get paid... they would also have the funds to amuse themselves ie the cinema bowling etc with their mates and take the pressure off parents trying to provide entertainment for teenagers on their already tight budget.This would also make it easier for us single mums to get jobs to fit in around our kids as we wont be expected to work weekends and holidays as there would be enough 'mini adults' to fill the gaps
I think a good way to get some of the kids off the streets is to bring back saturday/holiday work jobs for the youngsters...they learn the value of money and learn a little respect for those around them or else they dont get paid... they would also have the funds to amuse themselves ie the cinema bowling etc with their mates and take the pressure off parents trying to provide entertainment for teenagers on their already tight budget.This would also make it easier for us single mums to get jobs to fit in around our kids as we wont be expected to work weekends and holidays as there would be enough 'mini adults' to fill the gaps
C, SW London says...
9:14am Fri 4 Jul 08
This is getting frightening. Time for a Knife Amnesty.
Jacob, Croydon says...
9:21am Fri 4 Jul 08
Why the hell does the 'race card' have to come out yet again?! It's got nothing to do with police ignoring this because 'he is black'. It's simple, this is Thornton Heath, it's a bad area as it is and the same problem is happening up north with the white people...the way the British Legal System is, police can't do much and until that isn't reformed, crimes like these will continue. I agree - Latoya, I didn't understand a word you wrote.
Trasie, MItcham says...
9:23am Fri 4 Jul 08
All you gang members out there should wake up. THIS DOES NOT MAKE YOU HARD, THIS MAKES YOU A COWARD. AND YOU GIRLS OUT THERE LOOKING AT DEM MANS, GROW UP. Why would any woman want to be married to a coward bully. Please think about what you're all doing before it's too late. WHY DID IT TAKE AT LEAST 4 OF YOU TO USE A KNIFE, YOU COULD'VE HURT THE BOY WITHOUT IT. COWARDS COWARDS COWARDS!!!!!!!!!
Realist, Croydon and Lambeth says...
9:26am Fri 4 Jul 08
The policy and government do need to do more. But I don't think they realise just how bad the situation is, because they are living sheltered lives.
The likes of Boris Johnson and others, go around surrounded by safe areas. When Boris came to Croydon to publicise his commitments to improve public transport, I couldn't remember the last time I had seen so many police and authority figures in the general area without some kind of crime scene!
The likes of Boris Johnson and others, go around surrounded by safe areas. When Boris came to Croydon to publicise his commitments to improve public transport, I couldn't remember the last time I had seen so many police and authority figures in the general area without some kind of crime scene!
had enough !, surbiton says...
9:32am Fri 4 Jul 08
Bring back hanging. simple.
sarah, Surrey says...
9:39am Fri 4 Jul 08
Absouletly appalling, just read the boy died at midnight, how disgusting, this country is finished completely!! Agree with another person on here, bring back hanging these people need punishment not luxury prison cells!!
Trasie, Mitcham says...
10:22am Fri 4 Jul 08
No disrespect but I believe Latoya is only in primary school, she does still have time to learn lots of things including reading and writing.
L.Thomas, Croydon says...
10:23am Fri 4 Jul 08
Cowardly, spineless and weak behaviour of those killer thugs. Absolutely disgusting, he must have been so scared my hear goes out to his family. I blame the government, they have removed parental/adult rights in discipling the child. They have given the power to the children - and this is how some kids abuse it. Something has got to give, or people will start setting up their own vigilante groups in catching thugs like these. It will be the only way to reclaim the streets and restoring justice unless the Government do something. I strongly suggest they bring back the National Service for anyone under the age of 18 not in full-time education or employment as well as ones who already have a history of violence or robbery.
Michelle, Thornton Heath says...
10:26am Fri 4 Jul 08
First of all my condolonces to the family concern. I am so tired and sick of reading things like this - another child has died, another mother, father, brother, sister is grieving the loss of their loved one. How many more younsters are going to die before these other youngsters stop their foolishness. Get yourself an education, stay in school, learn something, turn to GOD even, get a job, stay away from this kind of life - in the end they will suffer, they will pay the price. They will eventually get caught. I am a mother of 3 boys - yes black boys - and I add I am West Indian my eldest is 20 he is currently at University, my other two are in school Secondary and Junior - and they are doing very well. You see black boys you can succeed - you can do well. Forget this nonesense that "there is not enough to do, no clubs around for them to go to, people are looking down on them etc etc" oh and its "because I am black" - absolute rubbish it is a big wide world with lots of opporutnities if you use it rightly. So if you guys think crime is the way, eventually it will catch up with you.
Lisa, Croydon says...
10:28am Fri 4 Jul 08
I really really pray that these youths get what they deserve. They have no idea of the consequences of their actions and how it affects so many peoples lives n a devastating way. Something drastic needs to be done, our justice system is way to lenient. I am actually starting to favour capital punishment because I cannot see what else we can do to stop these ba#tards from killing.
Trasie, Mitcham says...
10:28am Fri 4 Jul 08
I do agree in some part to National service for the young, as you say L.Thomas, if they are not in full time education or a full time job. But violent criminals no, they already know how use a gun why give them training to be even better at it.
dobo, croydon says...
10:30am Fri 4 Jul 08
all these yungers need to grow up...No. As a minimum, they need putting away for life. I'd like to see the death penalty for such crimes but its never likely to return unfortunately...
Trasie, Mitcham says...
10:31am Fri 4 Jul 08
I do agree in some part to National service for the young, as you say L.Thomas, if they are not in full time education or a full time job. But violent criminals no, they already know how use a gun why give them training to be even better at it.
Niya, TH says...
10:37am Fri 4 Jul 08
Trasie in Mithcam. People should be able to read and write by the time they get to Primary! I learnt to write when i was 4! Its the kids today writing like text language, they'll never learn to write.
So they will be unemployed for a very long time and turn to knife crime cos its the only way.
Don't bring back hanging. I was once into capital punishment but then that would make me just as bad as them. To want to kill someone because they killed someone else? What if government gets it wrong and kills somoene who is not guilty? Government will get super bigheaded and start hanging everyone left right and centre.
This attack is so close to home, its unbelievable. And playing the race card is not a good idea. Maybe the police didn't want to tell you anything cos you were black just incase you were part of the gang. I highly doubt its cos they hate your colour!!
This country esp TH has gone to the ****!
So they will be unemployed for a very long time and turn to knife crime cos its the only way.
Don't bring back hanging. I was once into capital punishment but then that would make me just as bad as them. To want to kill someone because they killed someone else? What if government gets it wrong and kills somoene who is not guilty? Government will get super bigheaded and start hanging everyone left right and centre.
This attack is so close to home, its unbelievable. And playing the race card is not a good idea. Maybe the police didn't want to tell you anything cos you were black just incase you were part of the gang. I highly doubt its cos they hate your colour!!
This country esp TH has gone to the ****!
Glad I moved away, Scotland says...
10:51am Fri 4 Jul 08
The Police ask for witnesses to come forward ...but I would be a bit apprehensive if that was me ...noting they have already given the full name of one eye witness Mr Rchard Higgins...I think many people will be thinking twice about coming forward if their names could be prnted in the newspaper and online ...my thougths are with the family of this young boy
Aaron, LINCS says...
10:54am Fri 4 Jul 08
I lived in croydon for 29 years and recently moved to Lincolnshire 2 years ago not a great fan of it up here I wanted too move back down too croydon I have to admit It has got everything you want there especially compared to where I am now.
But in the last couple of years I have seen a MAJOR INCREASE in crime mainly Murders.
And the majority of them by kids.
I have heard of people being Beaten to death, Shot and stabbed.
And when something does happen to the people that cause all of this they show little if any remorse.
They might get put into an overcrowded jail for a couple of years with a chance of parole, or the worst Punishment yet 3 months suspended sentence and told that what they did was naughty and promise not too do it again. (Sarcasm).
I SAY FOR ANY CRIME COMMITTED LIKE THIS DESERVES CAPITOL PUNISHEMENT.
Seems Harsh but when you take an innocent life like this young boys and there's evidence to prove who done it then the convicted deserves nothing less themselves and sooner or later people will realize that taking a life.
The Police do the best they can with what they have.
Their not allowed to discipline kids like they used neither are the parents. All due too kids having more rights than adults.
And parents canÂ’t be everywhere at once especially in todayÂ’s society where ones personÂ’s wages cant go far.
If Capitol Punishment comes back even a teenager should not be excemped.
You commit a crime such as this you should be punished accordingly.
KIDS KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG ........
My heart goes out to the young boys family and friends.
But in the last couple of years I have seen a MAJOR INCREASE in crime mainly Murders.
And the majority of them by kids.
I have heard of people being Beaten to death, Shot and stabbed.
And when something does happen to the people that cause all of this they show little if any remorse.
They might get put into an overcrowded jail for a couple of years with a chance of parole, or the worst Punishment yet 3 months suspended sentence and told that what they did was naughty and promise not too do it again. (Sarcasm).
I SAY FOR ANY CRIME COMMITTED LIKE THIS DESERVES CAPITOL PUNISHEMENT.
Seems Harsh but when you take an innocent life like this young boys and there's evidence to prove who done it then the convicted deserves nothing less themselves and sooner or later people will realize that taking a life.
The Police do the best they can with what they have.
Their not allowed to discipline kids like they used neither are the parents. All due too kids having more rights than adults.
And parents canÂ’t be everywhere at once especially in todayÂ’s society where ones personÂ’s wages cant go far.
If Capitol Punishment comes back even a teenager should not be excemped.
You commit a crime such as this you should be punished accordingly.
KIDS KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG ........
My heart goes out to the young boys family and friends.
Shantelle, Thornton Heath says...
11:10am Fri 4 Jul 08
X wrote:This has nothing to do with race! It is so frustrating to think that people still feel the need to pull the race card whenever they don't get what they want. To criticise the police is not right either- it's the system, their bosses, that haven't given them the basic information- they are doing the best job they can with very little help.
I saw a gang of youths acting suspiciously about 1.35pm in the area just before the incident. I just found out about it and went to the Police at the scene. I told them I saw suspicious behaviour at 1.35pm and asked them what time the crime had happened in case it had nothing to do with the youths. Would you believe that not one of the four officers could tell me the time it happened. They suggested I find out by looking at the ITN website!! Maybe if I'd been white they might have taken more notice - I guess to the Police this is just another black on black incident which will be all too soon forgotten....
I think there should be less blame on parents too- at 16,17,18 these "kids" are old enough to know better and will often take very little notice of parents.
As a victim of knife crime in Thornton Heath myself, my heart goes out to the family involved.
Minzi, London says...
11:10am Fri 4 Jul 08
This is Abysmal!
Not to be negative but imagine what the numbers will be like by Christmas time.
The value of human life is being downgraded.
Not to be negative but imagine what the numbers will be like by Christmas time.
The value of human life is being downgraded.
Shirley, Purley says...
11:53am Fri 4 Jul 08
One black boy dies in a knife incident, and two more pick up knives because they feel they need to protect themselves.
Whilst this is mainly a problem in the black community, it's the responsibility of everyone to plough resources into the solution.
Whilst this is mainly a problem in the black community, it's the responsibility of everyone to plough resources into the solution.
duncandesigns, Thornton heath says...
11:55am Fri 4 Jul 08
K Arther, I think your response is childish. Obviously you can tell what Latoya is saying.
Gun crime needs to stop.
R.I.P
Gun crime needs to stop.
R.I.P
Trasie, Mitcham says...
11:57am Fri 4 Jul 08
Niya TH, I don't think being able to read or write or not is the issue I disagree that if you can't read/write you are unemployable, look at the Fonz he was dyslexic as a child and he's a rich man today and writing books for children! It's about how you apply yourself that matters. These gangs of youths think it's okay to intimidate people and rob people just because they can. The unfortunate events of recent times has put us all in a state of fear, including some gang members. Once there it's extremely difficult to get away from it. And as it's been said before you cannot blame the parents all time these kids make up their own minds to become gangs members. I would say that alot of parents don't even know their kids are in a gang because they lie to parents. How can you change something you're not aware of until it is painfully too late. My heart goes out to this poor boys family and friends and I cannot imagine the fear in that little lad yesterday afternoon. Most children of 16 will have just finished their exams and if their parents are out working hard how can they be whatched all the time. Very difficult situation.
x, Thornton Heath says...
12:23pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Shantelle,
Race has got everything to do with it. The Police have been branded as institutionally racist - this is official. Only last week a very senior Asian Police officer started legal proceedings against the Police for racism. Two weeks before that they had to pay substantial damages to another Asian officer for racism. If they can't treat one of their own fairly, what chance is their for the general public??
The Met Police have some of the best training in the world and their funding has increased substantially over the last six years. So, lack of resources and poor capability are red herrings.
The Police aren't doing everything they can to find yesterday's killers. When I went to the crime scene last night to talk to the Police they didn't bother take a statement, my name, they didn't even know what time the crime occured. I was near to the crime scene at 1.35pm and I told them the info I had might be important but they didn't contact any of their colleagues - time is of the essence. I knew exactly where the youths were before the attack, I saw how they were looking out for the victim and I saw the route they took towards the crime scene and I wanted to tell them who else would have seen them. In order to make progress I rang the Police late last night and told them all this and they said they would "come back to me " . I'm still waiting for a call.
This doesn't sound like a Force which is desparate to take criminals who commit black on black crimes off the street....
Race has got everything to do with it. The Police have been branded as institutionally racist - this is official. Only last week a very senior Asian Police officer started legal proceedings against the Police for racism. Two weeks before that they had to pay substantial damages to another Asian officer for racism. If they can't treat one of their own fairly, what chance is their for the general public??
The Met Police have some of the best training in the world and their funding has increased substantially over the last six years. So, lack of resources and poor capability are red herrings.
The Police aren't doing everything they can to find yesterday's killers. When I went to the crime scene last night to talk to the Police they didn't bother take a statement, my name, they didn't even know what time the crime occured. I was near to the crime scene at 1.35pm and I told them the info I had might be important but they didn't contact any of their colleagues - time is of the essence. I knew exactly where the youths were before the attack, I saw how they were looking out for the victim and I saw the route they took towards the crime scene and I wanted to tell them who else would have seen them. In order to make progress I rang the Police late last night and told them all this and they said they would "come back to me " . I'm still waiting for a call.
This doesn't sound like a Force which is desparate to take criminals who commit black on black crimes off the street....
Lady S, Surrey says...
12:29pm Fri 4 Jul 08
to Niya who said:
People should be able to read and write by the time they get to Primary! I learnt to write when i was 4! Its the kids today writing like text language, they'll never learn to write.
So they will be unemployed for a very long time and turn to knife crime cos its the only way.
This is not a discussion on people's Spelling or English! if that is the case then look at your own quotes.. i.e COS..
Its about the poor boy who got stabbed to death and all of these stabbings going on. so please stop being so petty! As for your comment about her not being able to spell so therefore she will end up unemployed and turn to knife crime! That is pathetic! Just because you cant read or write, does not mean that you cant get a job! and then you will go around stabbing people.
There is no excuse for these stabbings. Yes they are cowards. the thing is they think they need a knife to protect themself from other people with weapons but that just causes a visios (oh spelling Niya, dont have a go) circle of violence!
What happened to the days where people would just have a fight to sort their differences? im not saying thats right either, but its better than knifes and Guns!
Condolances to the Family.
People should be able to read and write by the time they get to Primary! I learnt to write when i was 4! Its the kids today writing like text language, they'll never learn to write.
So they will be unemployed for a very long time and turn to knife crime cos its the only way.
This is not a discussion on people's Spelling or English! if that is the case then look at your own quotes.. i.e COS..
Its about the poor boy who got stabbed to death and all of these stabbings going on. so please stop being so petty! As for your comment about her not being able to spell so therefore she will end up unemployed and turn to knife crime! That is pathetic! Just because you cant read or write, does not mean that you cant get a job! and then you will go around stabbing people.
There is no excuse for these stabbings. Yes they are cowards. the thing is they think they need a knife to protect themself from other people with weapons but that just causes a visios (oh spelling Niya, dont have a go) circle of violence!
What happened to the days where people would just have a fight to sort their differences? im not saying thats right either, but its better than knifes and Guns!
Condolances to the Family.
Michael Valentine, Thornton Heath says...
12:31pm Fri 4 Jul 08
We have all heard the many excuses for this sickening degenerative behaviour. It is unbelievable and unacceptable that in the 21st century (where information is so readily available) that sound bites such as “The government need to do something” And “The kids don’t have anything to do” are still being used.
Obviously there are many factors to consider with regards to the decline in the two R’s (Responsibility & Respect). We could go back to the 1980’s (The Thatcher years) and consider her policies of “If a service does not make money” get rid of it”. Which have gone along way in forming the self-preservation and super-greed “I want, I want” “I must have” attitudes that have seeped into our very souls. Or we could look at marketing and the fact that toddlers have been turned into consumers etc.
With all the above in mind, I feel sad to admit that what we are seeing is just the tip of the iceberg. Many years ago children were having children, now I almost see who I regard as ‘toddlers’ having babies. And many of these toddlers and babies have no real extended family such as aunties, uncles, grandparents etc at hand to pass on values.
Many minor, but important values are absent from our day-to-day living. We seem to have lost the ability to ‘think for ourselves’ and to pass on such free thinking to our children.
My son does not play shoot them up computer games where the target is a simulated human being! If he has sweets he shares them with his friends, he says thank you all the time. Though I am not married to his mother, I remind him every other day that we both love him! I could go onÂ…
Somehow we all need to find self love amongst this madness and pass it on to adults as well as everybodyÂ’s children!
Obviously there are many factors to consider with regards to the decline in the two R’s (Responsibility & Respect). We could go back to the 1980’s (The Thatcher years) and consider her policies of “If a service does not make money” get rid of it”. Which have gone along way in forming the self-preservation and super-greed “I want, I want” “I must have” attitudes that have seeped into our very souls. Or we could look at marketing and the fact that toddlers have been turned into consumers etc.
With all the above in mind, I feel sad to admit that what we are seeing is just the tip of the iceberg. Many years ago children were having children, now I almost see who I regard as ‘toddlers’ having babies. And many of these toddlers and babies have no real extended family such as aunties, uncles, grandparents etc at hand to pass on values.
Many minor, but important values are absent from our day-to-day living. We seem to have lost the ability to ‘think for ourselves’ and to pass on such free thinking to our children.
My son does not play shoot them up computer games where the target is a simulated human being! If he has sweets he shares them with his friends, he says thank you all the time. Though I am not married to his mother, I remind him every other day that we both love him! I could go onÂ…
Somehow we all need to find self love amongst this madness and pass it on to adults as well as everybodyÂ’s children!
Trasie, Mitcham says...
12:39pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Well said Lady S. We have the whole of the summer holidays to get through yet. The police should definitely step up to the plate and deliver some much needed reassurances to the general public. FULL ON PUBLIC VIEW WITH REAL OFFICERS.
Gareth Evans, UK says...
12:47pm Fri 4 Jul 08
The police CANNOT protect you!
They wont be there when you get stabbed. All they do is solve crimes AFTER you are dead!
Hoodies know, you're a target. U get 4 year for 4 carry Knife..lol...not me, 16 yrs old..2 month maybe...lol.
They wont be there when you get stabbed. All they do is solve crimes AFTER you are dead!
Hoodies know, you're a target. U get 4 year for 4 carry Knife..lol...not me, 16 yrs old..2 month maybe...lol.
Tigs, says...
1:08pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Did anyone happen to watch or catch any of "Fallout" on Channel 4 last night? It was exactly the kind of thing that this was about.
I think it seems to be British born black/mixed race kids bullying to the extreme, kids that have come from various parts of Africa. It is probably another Damilola Taylor type of situation.
There was something said at the beginning of the play last night when these boys were bullying their victim which implied he was really dark compared to them. Now if we can't at least have solidarity in groups with different skin colour than what hope is there?
The other side of the argument I feel is that many of the kids that are carrying weapons may have come from war torn countries. This makes them de-sensitised to violence and maybe as a result they have no feelings about stabbing somebody over something petty.
I think it seems to be British born black/mixed race kids bullying to the extreme, kids that have come from various parts of Africa. It is probably another Damilola Taylor type of situation.
There was something said at the beginning of the play last night when these boys were bullying their victim which implied he was really dark compared to them. Now if we can't at least have solidarity in groups with different skin colour than what hope is there?
The other side of the argument I feel is that many of the kids that are carrying weapons may have come from war torn countries. This makes them de-sensitised to violence and maybe as a result they have no feelings about stabbing somebody over something petty.
RG, Surrey, Surrey says...
1:11pm Fri 4 Jul 08
This is a dreadful story, my heart goes out to the family. To imagine the poor child crying for his mum is just heart-breaking. If the facts in the story are correct, this gang chased the boy down like a pack of wild animals. What the solution to this madness is I dont know, but as a parent, I firmly believe the buck stops with me for my childrens behaviour, parents you are ALL responsible, sadly we live in a society that allows children to breed children and grow up with no sense of morals. For those blaming single parents, I dont think you can tar everyone with the same brush, there are plenty of single parents being proper role models for their kids. I hope they catch these kids, and I hope they pay for what they have done and I hope their parents are held accountable for raising such disgusting, vile and inhuman animals.
Watching with Wonder, Croydon says...
1:24pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Note about Latoya's comments: I agree her use of language and grammar could do with improvement but that's more to do with the society she lives in rather the the girl herself. I appluad Latoya for her heart, which is clearly in the right place.
As for the attack, kids on the street with their jeans round their knees, chunky gold jewels weighing down their arms, walking with some bizarre strut rather then with any sense of purpose - and white and black kids too: I think both race issues and single parent families are contributory factors but they are not wholly responsible - it's the negative influences of hip-hop and gangland culture. It needs stamping out. Why do these kids carry knives in the first place? It's like they are looking for a fight. I walk around with my keys in my pocket - can't really see the need to carry knives - I keep them in the kitchen for cooking!
As for the attack, kids on the street with their jeans round their knees, chunky gold jewels weighing down their arms, walking with some bizarre strut rather then with any sense of purpose - and white and black kids too: I think both race issues and single parent families are contributory factors but they are not wholly responsible - it's the negative influences of hip-hop and gangland culture. It needs stamping out. Why do these kids carry knives in the first place? It's like they are looking for a fight. I walk around with my keys in my pocket - can't really see the need to carry knives - I keep them in the kitchen for cooking!
Leha Lauren, South east says...
1:37pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Its great that your all having your say...but what are each of you actually going to do about this situtation? We all need to be adapting to the situtation and supporting each other through this. We need to be supporting our local youth clubs, being the eyes and ears for the police, we need to stop insulting the pcso's and start making them feel valued along with the youth of today. Give them something to live for, to keep them busy and to feel valued. We all need to be supporting the local community and start treating these kids with respect as if they feel like they aren't repected they'll get use fear to get what they want.
It's all right leaving comments but everyone of us need to be out there helping to make a difference and changing things. There are loads of local charities you could support that do lots for youths, there are lots of support agencys that try to get kids out of crime, we also need to hear the voices of the youth, why crime, why violence? In there words, there the ones out on the street having to deal with each other whilst we hussle past fearful of being robbed because of the fear the media put into us.
Frankly if i was a teenager in this day and age.... i would be fearful... so maybe the arms of a gang might be a comfort as you don't want to be out on the streets alone.... Its not right but put yourself into their situation... Something must be pushing them in that direction.
Think about it, life is tough for teenages we have to make sure that they know that being in a gang escalates the situation not protects them from it and give them a way out.
Its not going to be easy but we all need to be changing to look out for the teenages who start to think their worthless.... don't let them lose hope... people can change but perhaps it's our society that is shaping these youths.... We have to change.
It's all right leaving comments but everyone of us need to be out there helping to make a difference and changing things. There are loads of local charities you could support that do lots for youths, there are lots of support agencys that try to get kids out of crime, we also need to hear the voices of the youth, why crime, why violence? In there words, there the ones out on the street having to deal with each other whilst we hussle past fearful of being robbed because of the fear the media put into us.
Frankly if i was a teenager in this day and age.... i would be fearful... so maybe the arms of a gang might be a comfort as you don't want to be out on the streets alone.... Its not right but put yourself into their situation... Something must be pushing them in that direction.
Think about it, life is tough for teenages we have to make sure that they know that being in a gang escalates the situation not protects them from it and give them a way out.
Its not going to be easy but we all need to be changing to look out for the teenages who start to think their worthless.... don't let them lose hope... people can change but perhaps it's our society that is shaping these youths.... We have to change.
miss wilson, says...
1:40pm Fri 4 Jul 08
when is this all going to stop
God help us I just want to tell all those christain out there to continue to pray for our children
please dont misunderstand what is going on, these are the last days we are living in and the bible is right chidlren do not know respect for adult means
i dont want to scare you but the hand of God has gone out against this generation and we need to beg Him pardon and ask help
there was a time when school use to have prayers but to entertain others that has gone out of the window this is suppose to be a christian country and we should have kept up with what we believe it right not saying that we should not have make room for others yes but not to have left God out of it what do we expect now
God please forgive us
Croydon
God help us I just want to tell all those christain out there to continue to pray for our children
please dont misunderstand what is going on, these are the last days we are living in and the bible is right chidlren do not know respect for adult means
i dont want to scare you but the hand of God has gone out against this generation and we need to beg Him pardon and ask help
there was a time when school use to have prayers but to entertain others that has gone out of the window this is suppose to be a christian country and we should have kept up with what we believe it right not saying that we should not have make room for others yes but not to have left God out of it what do we expect now
God please forgive us
Croydon
Peace, London says...
1:51pm Fri 4 Jul 08
"the hand of God has gone out against this generation"
This is such a misleading comment. It implies that it is God's fault that we find ourselves in the situation we are in. Its not. It our fault. Its us turning our face away from God that has brought us to the here and now. He has not forsaken us, we have forsaken Him.
May, Shakilus Townsend Rest In Peace, another young life wasted, more dreams stamped upon. God bless his family and friends.
Kids... Please stop killing each other
This is such a misleading comment. It implies that it is God's fault that we find ourselves in the situation we are in. Its not. It our fault. Its us turning our face away from God that has brought us to the here and now. He has not forsaken us, we have forsaken Him.
May, Shakilus Townsend Rest In Peace, another young life wasted, more dreams stamped upon. God bless his family and friends.
Kids... Please stop killing each other
carly, london says...
1:55pm Fri 4 Jul 08
x, I think you are wrong in playing the race card. Some people these days look at every oppurtunity to play some sort of discrimination card & it is too easy. Maybe these officers were victims of racial crime but doesn't mean that all of the police force are racist does it? Police officers are only given certain information themselves, if any at all so there is not alot they can tell you. And who is to say that whoever they speak to isn't gona go back to the culprits & tell them whats happening & stuff?
As for the sorry state of this country, I think they only way this is going to stop is if kids realise for themselves that knives aint the answer. We can keep taking them from the kids but they will find other ways to get knives, its not hard these days.
It's either that wor we as a country join together & fight the little sh*ts themselves.
They are incapable of realising the hurt & trouble they are causing. Someone higher up in the government need to take off those rose-tinted glasses, jump off their pedastool & into their chauffer driven cars, out of their 24hr security houses & see this country for what it is..... A fu**ing mess!!!
I can only begin to imagine how this childs family must feel & my heart goes out to them.
As for the sorry state of this country, I think they only way this is going to stop is if kids realise for themselves that knives aint the answer. We can keep taking them from the kids but they will find other ways to get knives, its not hard these days.
It's either that wor we as a country join together & fight the little sh*ts themselves.
They are incapable of realising the hurt & trouble they are causing. Someone higher up in the government need to take off those rose-tinted glasses, jump off their pedastool & into their chauffer driven cars, out of their 24hr security houses & see this country for what it is..... A fu**ing mess!!!
I can only begin to imagine how this childs family must feel & my heart goes out to them.
Lady S, Surrey says...
1:59pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Yes, I saw Fall out lastnight on Channel 4 and it is very much what is happening these days.
As for you (tigs) thinking people carrying knifes, are from countries of war etc. I dont believe that is the case. I believe the majority of the ones who are doing this, are british born an have been braught up here. Like i said, and like in that film lastnight (Fall out) its all about who gets who first and oh they have knifes so then they feel the need to carry them too.
I also believe that the parents must know about their kids doing this BUT the other problem is with the law, parents are not allowed to disciplin their children. If they hit them (not saying this is the answer but it worked years ago)the parents can be arrested because the kids can call the police on them.
Oh and Miss Wilson,
yes God may be a good thing for people to turn to but with all this going on, many people lose their beliefs!
As for you (tigs) thinking people carrying knifes, are from countries of war etc. I dont believe that is the case. I believe the majority of the ones who are doing this, are british born an have been braught up here. Like i said, and like in that film lastnight (Fall out) its all about who gets who first and oh they have knifes so then they feel the need to carry them too.
I also believe that the parents must know about their kids doing this BUT the other problem is with the law, parents are not allowed to disciplin their children. If they hit them (not saying this is the answer but it worked years ago)the parents can be arrested because the kids can call the police on them.
Oh and Miss Wilson,
yes God may be a good thing for people to turn to but with all this going on, many people lose their beliefs!
carly, london says...
2:01pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Leha you are right, we can rant & rave all we like but something needs to be done.
When I'm out & about if I see a group of kids I try chatting to them, cos I smoke I just ask for a lighter or something & make a conversation. I know it's dangerous, young girl talking to big gangs. But some really aren't that bad & a couple of boys I was talking to once knew what they was doing was wrong but they were too scared of their 'elders' to leave.
I believe it is down the parents, I for one am scared for my little 2yr old's health if this doesn't change soon.
I would be happy to help in any ideas someone has to help beat this.
When I'm out & about if I see a group of kids I try chatting to them, cos I smoke I just ask for a lighter or something & make a conversation. I know it's dangerous, young girl talking to big gangs. But some really aren't that bad & a couple of boys I was talking to once knew what they was doing was wrong but they were too scared of their 'elders' to leave.
I believe it is down the parents, I for one am scared for my little 2yr old's health if this doesn't change soon.
I would be happy to help in any ideas someone has to help beat this.
jo, says...
2:16pm Fri 4 Jul 08
i think kids of 2day see it as a game when they no now days you can take a life and get cleared just like sian simpson killer its wrong sian family deserve justice anybody that takes a life needs to be locked up
Jock, London says...
2:21pm Fri 4 Jul 08
C wrote:We've already had that, on more than one occassion.
This is getting frightening. Time for a Knife Amnesty.
Do you really think the criminally minded, or these thugs, will turn their weapons in?? If you do, you're daft!
Trasie, mitcham says...
2:25pm Fri 4 Jul 08
I watched Fall Out as well and I thought it was very close to the truth. I also agree with Lady S (again) that the government in their infinite wisdom has stopped children being punished at an early age i.e. a smack on the back of the hand for a toddler who maybe looking at the cooker as a play thing! The teenage group in particular have no where to go and nothing to do. Have a look in most local parks and you will find only playgrounds for the under 10's what happens after that. The schools should also be open all summer for youth games and activities, they've already got all the equipment and space. Parents should be talking to teachers about how they can help with monitoring the activities, but I suppose once again Health and Safety is such a big issue that these kids are being rapped up in cotton wool on the one hand and left to deal with themselves in the other, there has to be a balance for their sakes.
Leha Lauren, South east says...
2:26pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Carly, i respect that you make time for those kids, you must be careful though. Think of your own personnal saftey. However at the same time we must not be ruled by fear.
make a change by....
*Voluntering for a local charity.
*Find out how you could help your local council with a youth projects etc.
*Supporting police in there battle against crime by being a volunteer special or by giving information.
*Help yourself by helping others....
Basically this takes imagination.... We need to let kids know about the risks of cannabis (mental health), we need to make sure kids don't drop out of school, we need to support kids in crime and show them they can be something without drugs and crime and for those kids who don't want to be involved in the good part of society (and there is a good part) then let the police know and let them be dealt with in some way.
Remember crime has always been around it's the media and the constant reporting of every incident that is making everything so sensetive!
No disrespect but i don't think this is about god! This is about a breakdown in society, you don't have to be mystic meg to predict this would happen, just common sense..
Anyway hell on earth comes to mind... but only because us humans make it hell on earth! Everyone has a choice.
We need to help the youth make the right choices.
make a change by....
*Voluntering for a local charity.
*Find out how you could help your local council with a youth projects etc.
*Supporting police in there battle against crime by being a volunteer special or by giving information.
*Help yourself by helping others....
Basically this takes imagination.... We need to let kids know about the risks of cannabis (mental health), we need to make sure kids don't drop out of school, we need to support kids in crime and show them they can be something without drugs and crime and for those kids who don't want to be involved in the good part of society (and there is a good part) then let the police know and let them be dealt with in some way.
Remember crime has always been around it's the media and the constant reporting of every incident that is making everything so sensetive!
No disrespect but i don't think this is about god! This is about a breakdown in society, you don't have to be mystic meg to predict this would happen, just common sense..
Anyway hell on earth comes to mind... but only because us humans make it hell on earth! Everyone has a choice.
We need to help the youth make the right choices.
Jock, London says...
2:31pm Fri 4 Jul 08
miss wilson wrote:Knew I'd find some religious mumbo jumbo amongst the comments.
when is this all going to stop God help us I just want to tell all those christain out there to continue to pray for our children please dont misunderstand what is going on, these are the last days we are living in and the bible is right chidlren do not know respect for adult means i dont want to scare you but the hand of God has gone out against this generation and we need to beg Him pardon and ask help there was a time when school use to have prayers but to entertain others that has gone out of the window this is suppose to be a christian country and we should have kept up with what we believe it right not saying that we should not have make room for others yes but not to have left God out of it what do we expect now God please forgive us Croydon
Save it for Sunday, please.
teacher/journalist, Caribbean says...
2:33pm Fri 4 Jul 08
I am a Brit living abroad and fully ready to return to UK. A friend in Croydon sent me this as a warning about what to expect...this is atrocious and the young Latoya's comments are exactly the 'cool, hip hop' image now protrayed by voilence. Send these murderers (say it as it is!)out to fight other people's wars and National Service is a must!Whats happened to my birth country?!
G.Virr, Sunbury Common says...
2:36pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Capital punishment is not the answer. The final say whether to execute or not was in the hands of the Home Scretary, a politician, and too many of them made indefensible decisions. The legal system also proved very much less than perfect, and I doubt that it has changed. We executed too many innocent people, and guilty ones undeserving of execution, in the few years of my life when we had capital punishment. In the time since capital punisment was abolished we would, judging from the many convicted people later declared innocent, have executed a good many more people who would later be proved to be innocent.
Trasie, mitcham says...
2:39pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Unfortunately, teacher/journalist, the good people that could and should be helping are this beautiful land in bucket loads every month. But it's not just this country this happens all over the world.
lin, croydon says...
2:43pm Fri 4 Jul 08
wen is this gona stop!
r i p .xx
r i p .xx
jo, croydon says...
2:53pm Fri 4 Jul 08
this needs 2 stop
R.I.P XX
R.I.P XX
jacqu, bristol says...
3:30pm Fri 4 Jul 08
x wrote:i dot not agree MY DAUGHTER was shot by a gang of men from croyden and the police took them to court the cps brought a case against them,, there were no eye witness in court as every one was to scared so the man who shot my daughter walked FREE nd is till at large in croyden, well he was untill 20th of june wen he was sent tp prison for some thing else,, bring back hanging to the reoffenders get hung... oh and they were jamiacan not british born. so racist police worked ok but the justice system is s
Shantelle, Race has got everything to do with it. The Police have been branded as institutionally racist - this is official. Only last week a very senior Asian Police officer started legal proceedings against the Police for racism. Two weeks before that they had to pay substantial damages to another Asian officer for racism. If they can\'t treat one of their own fairly, what chance is their for the general public?? The Met Police have some of the best training in the world and their funding has increased substantially over the last six years. So, lack of resources and poor capability are red herrings. The Police aren\'t doing everything they can to find yesterday\'s killers. When I went to the crime scene last night to talk to the Police they didn\'t bother take a statement, my name, they didn\'t even know what time the crime occured. I was near to the crime scene at 1.35pm and I told them the info I had might be important but they didn\'t contact any of their colleagues - time is of the essence. I knew exactly where the youths were before the attack, I saw how they were looking out for the victim and I saw the route they took towards the crime scene and I wanted to tell them who else would have seen them. In order to make progress I rang the Police late last night and told them all this and they said they would \"come back to me \" . I\'m still waiting for a call. This doesn\'t sound like a Force which is desparate to take criminals who commit black on black crimes off the street....
Lady S, Surrey says...
3:32pm Fri 4 Jul 08
To Leha...
I see you brought up the cannabis issue, but i dont hear you talking about alcohol! yes cannabis CAN bring out mental illness BUT alcohol is one of the worst things because its alcohol that makes people confident and loud and want to cause trouble etc (and yes i do drink alcohol on occasions but no, I personally dont want to fight but I see it when I go out)
Cannabis users may be parranoid but isnt it better to be warey than to be over confident?
its nothing to do with hip hop! another thing that gets to me, is people blaming music, but then what about films? you could say that about films... music is music and films are films.
I do agree that something has to be done though but therefore, Parents, Teachers and everyone else have to pull together and speak to these kids. if they are in gangs then speak to them find out why, try and bring them together supervised with their parents. its not hard to find out who are in these gangs just have some police around the areas speak to the gangs and try to get to speak to their parents. im not sure if this can actually happen but it is what needs to be done. if thats not possible then force these Youths in to the army!
I really dont want to bring my kids up in this country but then again its not just this country that is like this! its all over the world!
i cant imagine what this boys family are going through (along with all the families of the other young people who have been killed)
people dont no when to stop.
Oh and knife amnesty is NOT gonna work! dont most people have knifes in their kitchen?? eeerr yeh!
I see you brought up the cannabis issue, but i dont hear you talking about alcohol! yes cannabis CAN bring out mental illness BUT alcohol is one of the worst things because its alcohol that makes people confident and loud and want to cause trouble etc (and yes i do drink alcohol on occasions but no, I personally dont want to fight but I see it when I go out)
Cannabis users may be parranoid but isnt it better to be warey than to be over confident?
its nothing to do with hip hop! another thing that gets to me, is people blaming music, but then what about films? you could say that about films... music is music and films are films.
I do agree that something has to be done though but therefore, Parents, Teachers and everyone else have to pull together and speak to these kids. if they are in gangs then speak to them find out why, try and bring them together supervised with their parents. its not hard to find out who are in these gangs just have some police around the areas speak to the gangs and try to get to speak to their parents. im not sure if this can actually happen but it is what needs to be done. if thats not possible then force these Youths in to the army!
I really dont want to bring my kids up in this country but then again its not just this country that is like this! its all over the world!
i cant imagine what this boys family are going through (along with all the families of the other young people who have been killed)
people dont no when to stop.
Oh and knife amnesty is NOT gonna work! dont most people have knifes in their kitchen?? eeerr yeh!
Leha Lauren, says...
3:52pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Lady S - Your right, alcohol as well!!
I brought up the cannabis issue because i know lots of people who smoke it and i think it just makes them crap, unmotivated and so mellow. The ones that smoke it constantly get aggressive when they don't smoke it...
Alcohol - perhaps one of the biggest killers! It screws up lives and i agree it's probably worse as it's so easily available.
And yes i know there are people who do both who do so just fine...i'm just picking up on what i see with the people who don't handle it well.
I brought up the cannabis issue because i know lots of people who smoke it and i think it just makes them crap, unmotivated and so mellow. The ones that smoke it constantly get aggressive when they don't smoke it...
Alcohol - perhaps one of the biggest killers! It screws up lives and i agree it's probably worse as it's so easily available.
And yes i know there are people who do both who do so just fine...i'm just picking up on what i see with the people who don't handle it well.
carly, london says...
4:05pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Yes Leha, thanks for your advice.
I dont think it is always drugs & alcohol, a lot of them dont even smoke a cigarette let alone anything else! My partners little sister knows a big bang around south west London & is starting to mix in with them, I've used my past experiences of the same sort of thing (obviously not on this scale though!) to help her realise that in the end it wont help her.
If I hadn't started smoking at 14, bunking off school & causing trouble I think I could def be a much more successful person. I realised this & have worked my backside off to get where I am now, I am now 20 with my little boy, have a rented house, a good paying job & a nice car to get me about plus money for little luxuries for my boy. And none of this paid for by the council only my hard earned money. It's taken a while but had I listened to people before I went down that route, I would be even more successful.
I just want to get through to these people that it doesn't have to be that way, I still have friends my age doing the same thing they did when we were 16, hanging around parks drinking & smoking. But it's all they know. And I've tried to help.
Thanks Leha for your support, I don't try & talk to kids who look to dangerous, there's no type, they just don't make you feel safe. But I have managed to talk to alot of people, I think mayb because I've sort of been there & know how it feels.
I dont think it is always drugs & alcohol, a lot of them dont even smoke a cigarette let alone anything else! My partners little sister knows a big bang around south west London & is starting to mix in with them, I've used my past experiences of the same sort of thing (obviously not on this scale though!) to help her realise that in the end it wont help her.
If I hadn't started smoking at 14, bunking off school & causing trouble I think I could def be a much more successful person. I realised this & have worked my backside off to get where I am now, I am now 20 with my little boy, have a rented house, a good paying job & a nice car to get me about plus money for little luxuries for my boy. And none of this paid for by the council only my hard earned money. It's taken a while but had I listened to people before I went down that route, I would be even more successful.
I just want to get through to these people that it doesn't have to be that way, I still have friends my age doing the same thing they did when we were 16, hanging around parks drinking & smoking. But it's all they know. And I've tried to help.
Thanks Leha for your support, I don't try & talk to kids who look to dangerous, there's no type, they just don't make you feel safe. But I have managed to talk to alot of people, I think mayb because I've sort of been there & know how it feels.
tim, the met says...
4:09pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Once again something tragic happens and the populace is up in arms and its the goverment and police that are to blame.
"More police on the streets" you demand
"Police should do something" You say
"The police are racist and the victim was black so they dont care" ....
As a police officer its clear most of the public have no idea what we do and seriously no idea of the resources we have!!!
My london borough is lucky to have 10 officers on the street doing EVERYTHING - This includes taking "Harassment" reports from the underclass when they get a text from their exes, reporting an "assault" when actually nothing has happened, dealing with the drunken night club idiots who get ejected and generally clearing up the mess and petty squabbles between the low-lives who can't organise themselves or look after their own kids/partners/proper
ty.
Oh, and each of these reports will take an officer off the street for anything up to 4 hours, 8 hours usually for a 15yr old shoplifter.
Its the career we chose and we do it nevertheless, but don't be so quick to judge us on our results - we usually don't have the time to patrol as we are too busy dealing with all the other rubbish!
Want more police and less PCSOs?? - Write to your MP,The MPA, or the press.
"More police on the streets" you demand
"Police should do something" You say
"The police are racist and the victim was black so they dont care" ....
As a police officer its clear most of the public have no idea what we do and seriously no idea of the resources we have!!!
My london borough is lucky to have 10 officers on the street doing EVERYTHING - This includes taking "Harassment" reports from the underclass when they get a text from their exes, reporting an "assault" when actually nothing has happened, dealing with the drunken night club idiots who get ejected and generally clearing up the mess and petty squabbles between the low-lives who can't organise themselves or look after their own kids/partners/proper
ty.
Oh, and each of these reports will take an officer off the street for anything up to 4 hours, 8 hours usually for a 15yr old shoplifter.
Its the career we chose and we do it nevertheless, but don't be so quick to judge us on our results - we usually don't have the time to patrol as we are too busy dealing with all the other rubbish!
Want more police and less PCSOs?? - Write to your MP,The MPA, or the press.
c, thornton heath says...
4:12pm Fri 4 Jul 08
i read a comment about just because you are black they didnt take any notice there is a number to ring them officers are trying to do everything its not about black on black killings because if you havent noticed its all races who are being stabbed and its all races doing the stabbings its small minded comments like yours that are destroying our comunitys bond
Leha Lauren, says...
4:13pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Carly your awesome, Good on ya girl.
I'm sure you will be even more successful.
...and like you i have kinda been there, begin brought up in Peckham! but hopefully we are just a few of many who have changed there lives.. sometimes people just need someone to believe in them.
....Take care all.. and my respects are with Shakilus family and friends.
I'm sure you will be even more successful.
...and like you i have kinda been there, begin brought up in Peckham! but hopefully we are just a few of many who have changed there lives.. sometimes people just need someone to believe in them.
....Take care all.. and my respects are with Shakilus family and friends.
carly, london says...
4:13pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Tims got a point......
tim, the met says...
4:17pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Oh forgot to add - Dont expect tough punishment from the courts even if you are found with a knife - last week a 15yr old found with a carving knife on a bus got the massive punishment of.....community service. We, the police do our best, the result in court is for the magistrates to dish out, dont think it's only the public who get sick and tired of "Soft justice"
carly, london says...
4:20pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Have to agree with Tim on that. As much as I'm not a fan of the police (no offence Tim) I understand it's a hard job as there is so much stick for it When you do all you can & then the Courts chuck it at ya with crappy rulings & sentences!
Like those judges that let peadophiles walk free amongst children etc. I hope they sort it out soon otherwise the police force will revolt against the courts & I'd be behind them all the way!!
Like those judges that let peadophiles walk free amongst children etc. I hope they sort it out soon otherwise the police force will revolt against the courts & I'd be behind them all the way!!
Natalia, thornton heath says...
4:23pm Fri 4 Jul 08
so disgusting what these "youths" are doing these days! all a bunch of animals in my eyes...to be carrying knives to harm someone?!!
i hope those animals get caught and get what they deserve i believe there should be capital punishment...that would stop a lot of people from comminting a crime, if they get caught and the DNA studies are getting better.
if you animals are reading this...turn yourselves in...it wont be long until you are caught...
what this country SHOULD DO is once a boy turns 16 send him to the army! that is what a lot of countries do in europe do...might teach them respect for others, to value life and to have a proper life in the future.
reason im saying boys is because to be honest its boys that commit a majority of the voilence acts around in london...ok i know females do it too, but a lot of females are influenced by males, and the females who do that stuff look like boys anyway...all just street rats...WHY ARE THEY NOT IN SCHOOL!
i hope those animals get caught and get what they deserve i believe there should be capital punishment...that would stop a lot of people from comminting a crime, if they get caught and the DNA studies are getting better.
if you animals are reading this...turn yourselves in...it wont be long until you are caught...
what this country SHOULD DO is once a boy turns 16 send him to the army! that is what a lot of countries do in europe do...might teach them respect for others, to value life and to have a proper life in the future.
reason im saying boys is because to be honest its boys that commit a majority of the voilence acts around in london...ok i know females do it too, but a lot of females are influenced by males, and the females who do that stuff look like boys anyway...all just street rats...WHY ARE THEY NOT IN SCHOOL!
Lady S, surrey says...
4:23pm Fri 4 Jul 08
ok Leha, fair enough but i still dont actually think either are the main cause. it is just these kids who are bored then get involved in the wrong crowds and are easily led. back in the day when i was younger(baring in mind im not old, im 23) when people had a problem they would have a fight but now people are too quick to threaten others and too quick to pull knifes/guns out!
A miricle needs to happen really! its just SAD..
A miricle needs to happen really! its just SAD..
carly, london says...
4:26pm Fri 4 Jul 08
I agree Lady S, if any of me or my friends had an argument we used fists (not very ladylike I must admit!!) But it's gone beyond that.
Like a previous comment said, this group could have easily harmed this boy without weapons, 4 on 1, aint exactly fair is it.
It's just getting beyond a joke really, I would never want to go through the pain any parents are feeling if this happens.
Like a previous comment said, this group could have easily harmed this boy without weapons, 4 on 1, aint exactly fair is it.
It's just getting beyond a joke really, I would never want to go through the pain any parents are feeling if this happens.
jim, london says...
4:52pm Fri 4 Jul 08
I just can't belive this story. How can people be as dunb as these kids were. Where are these retards coming from.
deece, Morden says...
4:57pm Fri 4 Jul 08
The problem we have is that kids aren't frightened to commit these kinds of crimes anymore because they know they can get away with it. Our jails are over crowded and judges are handing out sentences so short that these days a 16 year old who kills someone will be out of prison in their early 20's. And during that time they're getting the use of expensive computer games, pool tables and gym equipment that many law-abiding people can't afford. And it all comes out of taxpayer's money. No wonder there's such a high number of re-offenders when they come out!
The solution seems a simple one to me... stop spending money looking after people who don't deserve it and looking after people who have come over to this country with no intention of working cos they can live the life of riley on our benefits system. Then we will have enough money to build more prisons and judges will be able to hand out the proper life-means-life sentances that they should be. Maybe would-be-killers would then think twice if they knew they faced the rest of their life rotting away in a cell with nothing but a bed and a toilet. We'd also be able to afford some more policemen to do the old-fashioned beat patrols in the worst crime-hit areas.
Having said that though, the poor prisoners losing their luxuries would probably get up in arms about it and waste yet more taxpayer's money appealing under some crazy european law that our biggest disgrace of a priminister has forced on us.
Fantastic job Gorden. Keep it up!!
The solution seems a simple one to me... stop spending money looking after people who don't deserve it and looking after people who have come over to this country with no intention of working cos they can live the life of riley on our benefits system. Then we will have enough money to build more prisons and judges will be able to hand out the proper life-means-life sentances that they should be. Maybe would-be-killers would then think twice if they knew they faced the rest of their life rotting away in a cell with nothing but a bed and a toilet. We'd also be able to afford some more policemen to do the old-fashioned beat patrols in the worst crime-hit areas.
Having said that though, the poor prisoners losing their luxuries would probably get up in arms about it and waste yet more taxpayer's money appealing under some crazy european law that our biggest disgrace of a priminister has forced on us.
Fantastic job Gorden. Keep it up!!
Damion, Coulsdon says...
5:16pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Im 16 and this is disgusting its getting harder and harder to even step out my front door
R.I.P M8
R.I.P M8
DNT WATCH DAT, ENDZ INIT says...
5:23pm Fri 4 Jul 08
I KNEW BUGZ AKA DIS UTE...HE DONT DESERVE TO DIE BUT WHENEVER SOMEONE GETS KILLED THE MEIDA AND BLACK PEOPLE LIKE TO BE BLAME THE RACE. I AM BLACK AND A SINGLE DAD, I WOKE A FULL TIME JOB TO PROVIDE A BETTER LIFE FOR MY KIDS.
WHATS NOT HELPING THE KIDS IS PEOPLE MAKING EXCUSES ABOUT THE RACE. IN SOME CASES INFACT MOST IT MIGHT BE HARDER BECAUSE YOUR BLACK BUT THEY ARENT GOING TO BE DETERMINED TO SUCSEED IF THE ROLE MODELS THEY LOOK UP TO ARE SAYING THIS AND THAT CAN HAPPEN BECAUSE YOUR BLACK.
SHAK HAD ROBBED ALOT OF PEOPLE AND WAS A MEMBER OF A GANG...FACT....NOW LIKE I SAID NO1 DESERVES THIS BUT HIS VICTIMS DIDNT DESERVE WHAT THEY GOT.
RIP BUGZ. MY THOUGHTS ARE WITH YOUR FAMILY. ITS SUCH ASHAME YOULL BE FORGOTTEN ABOUT IN A FEW YEARS WHEN IF YOU WAS ALIVE YOU COULD OF TURND YOUR LIFE AROUND AND BEEN A HAPPY PERSON.
WHATS NOT HELPING THE KIDS IS PEOPLE MAKING EXCUSES ABOUT THE RACE. IN SOME CASES INFACT MOST IT MIGHT BE HARDER BECAUSE YOUR BLACK BUT THEY ARENT GOING TO BE DETERMINED TO SUCSEED IF THE ROLE MODELS THEY LOOK UP TO ARE SAYING THIS AND THAT CAN HAPPEN BECAUSE YOUR BLACK.
SHAK HAD ROBBED ALOT OF PEOPLE AND WAS A MEMBER OF A GANG...FACT....NOW LIKE I SAID NO1 DESERVES THIS BUT HIS VICTIMS DIDNT DESERVE WHAT THEY GOT.
RIP BUGZ. MY THOUGHTS ARE WITH YOUR FAMILY. ITS SUCH ASHAME YOULL BE FORGOTTEN ABOUT IN A FEW YEARS WHEN IF YOU WAS ALIVE YOU COULD OF TURND YOUR LIFE AROUND AND BEEN A HAPPY PERSON.
X, London says...
5:32pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Iv been searched before and i think its more than necessary, although people will disagree with me more street cameras are needed as its ridiculous that ppl can commit these silly crimes in broad daylight without getting caught. Community police should be armed with at least tazers because right now they are just ordinary citizens in police uniforms with notepads. I cant comprehend why ppl 1 or 2 yrs younger than me get in to this whole gang culture, i was left home sometimes as child and i cooked for myself and watched cartoons, i dont understand why 12-18yr olds find the need to be roaming about on the streets for no reason. A lot of groups are to blame here for this unacceptable behavior, parents need to keep their kids in check more often (i suggest corporal punishment that isn't overboard), I got a D in my business studies exam (much to my own refusal to study) and i got a handshake from my teacher saying well done..? Im a B student and i'm not sure if he said it because i was black but if thats the case i can see why some teenagers think school is a waste of time. anyone convicted of stabbing someone should get life, and i dont mean 25yrs, they should never be allowed out of prison. Alot of people in this country cant have a life anymore because they know the stabbers come out at 6:00pm prompt..it's like stay at home if you value your life. I personally want this to change but don't think it will with whats going on in schools nowadays, im making plans to leave this country as soon as im done with my degree.
Mehmet, South Croydon says...
5:51pm Fri 4 Jul 08
I couldn't believe it, the air ambulance landed in my school playground.My class 5b & 5m all rushed out into the cloakroom and watched the terrible inncident.
But we didnt witness anything and it was so kool but sad because someone has has their life taken away because of that :(
But we didnt witness anything and it was so kool but sad because someone has has their life taken away because of that :(
Toby, Belgium says...
5:55pm Fri 4 Jul 08
What do you expect ? you voted Blair into power three times. Did you think he was ever going to do anything but pursue his Marxist docrrine which is to weaken Britain by causing chaos so we are ripe for the Brave New World.
Marxist-Labour style.
Face Facts, you are only Pawns in a Game !!
Marxist-Labour style.
Face Facts, you are only Pawns in a Game !!
X, London says...
5:57pm Fri 4 Jul 08
deece wrote:I agree with your first point. Human rights and all that are a good thing but! once you become a criminal you should be striped of those rights. I heard on the news men in jail are suffering...so what? thats the reason why they are there. Human life should be valued but if a convict in jail wants to commit suicide, i say allow him. People are no longer afraid of jail (Or boarding school) because now they are more like hotels..bed & breakfast, free gym membership etc. Firing squads should be brought back, if you dont value someones life no-one should value yours.
The problem we have is that kids aren\'t frightened to commit these kinds of crimes anymore because they know they can get away with it. Our jails are over crowded and judges are handing out sentences so short that these days a 16 year old who kills someone will be out of prison in their early 20\'s. And during that time they\'re getting the use of expensive computer games, pool tables and gym equipment that many law-abiding people can\'t afford. And it all comes out of taxpayer\'s money. No wonder there\'s such a high number of re-offenders when they come out!
The solution seems a simple one to me... stop spending money looking after people who don\'t deserve it and looking after people who have come over to this country with no intention of working cos they can live the life of riley on our benefits system. Then we will have enough money to build more prisons and judges will be able to hand out the proper life-means-life sentances that they should be. Maybe would-be-killers would then think twice if they knew they faced the rest of their life rotting away in a cell with nothing but a bed and a toilet. We\'d also be able to afford some more policemen to do the old-fashioned beat patrols in the worst crime-hit areas.
Having said that though, the poor prisoners losing their luxuries would probably get up in arms about it and waste yet more taxpayer\'s money appealing under some crazy european law that our biggest disgrace of a priminister has forced on us.
Fantastic job Gorden. Keep it up!!
Luke, Dallas TX says...
8:42pm Fri 4 Jul 08
I used to live in Wandsworth and although these incidents are terrible the homicide rate in London is still 8 times less than Dallas. Texas hand out death penalty and life sentences like they are candy. Lond sentences will never be a deterrent to anyone and the USA is proof of that. They need to look at the social issues that lead to this type of crime and maybe it will reduce.
On another note maybe it is me but is the British media racist? When the guy murdered last week and from Harry Potter and the guy murdered in the Bakery the press coverage was huge. It doesn't seem to be the same for young darker skinned victims in this senseless violence
On another note maybe it is me but is the British media racist? When the guy murdered last week and from Harry Potter and the guy murdered in the Bakery the press coverage was huge. It doesn't seem to be the same for young darker skinned victims in this senseless violence
carola, LONDON says...
8:44pm Fri 4 Jul 08
When are the government and the people of Great Britain going to stand up against this. You find the suspects, you hang them! Job done! No expensive prison sentence that is too lenient anyway, and we the people have to pay for. My 11 year old son is starting secondary school in September, 5 miles from home and I am seriously worried.
me, croydon says...
10:40pm Fri 4 Jul 08
Posted by: carola, LONDON on 8:44pm today
When are the government and the people of Great Britain going to stand up against this. You find the suspects, you hang them! Job done! No expensive prison sentence that is too lenient anyway, and we the people have to pay for. My 11 year old son is starting secondary school in September, 5 miles from home and I am seriously worried.
When are the government and the people of Great Britain going to stand up against this. You find the suspects, you hang them! Job done! No expensive prison sentence that is too lenient anyway, and we the people have to pay for. My 11 year old son is starting secondary school in September, 5 miles from home and I am seriously worried.
Carola,
You cannot hang children and a lot of the culprits of stabbings are still classed as minors.
We need more discipline at home and in our schools because the softly softly approach is definately not working.
When are the government and the people of Great Britain going to stand up against this. You find the suspects, you hang them! Job done! No expensive prison sentence that is too lenient anyway, and we the people have to pay for. My 11 year old son is starting secondary school in September, 5 miles from home and I am seriously worried.
When are the government and the people of Great Britain going to stand up against this. You find the suspects, you hang them! Job done! No expensive prison sentence that is too lenient anyway, and we the people have to pay for. My 11 year old son is starting secondary school in September, 5 miles from home and I am seriously worried.
Carola,
You cannot hang children and a lot of the culprits of stabbings are still classed as minors.
We need more discipline at home and in our schools because the softly softly approach is definately not working.
ASH, Tooting says...
11:04pm Fri 4 Jul 08
There is some hope! We at Transformed have a monthly meeting where ex-gangsters, drug dealers, armed robbers, prostitutes, inmates, etc give their story of how their life has changed from a life of crime. Meeting this Sunday (6th) in Arodene Rd. Brixton @ 7pm or visit www.transformed.org.
uk to hear their life-changing stories.
uk to hear their life-changing stories.
Heartbroken Londoner, Thornton Heath says...
11:24pm Fri 4 Jul 08
I live round the corner from where the incident happened and I just feel so depressed and scared about the whole situation. As much as I feel for this young boy and his family, I'm wondering what was this 16 year old boy who lives in Deptford, doing down here and why was he not at school/college...? Last weekend I was woken up at 7.00am by a group of teenagers who, i guess had just come back from a rave or something. They were cussing each other and making so much noise that my husband and I looked out of the window. By this time they were moving off but we saw that they had bent our wndscreen wipers. my husband was so mad. He was ready to go out and confront them but I said no way. I think its too dangerous to confront these teenagers these days. We have a 2-year-old and a 10 month old baby. They need their father alive and in one piece more than they need a car with straight wind screen wipers ! Thats the problem. Personally these young black teenagers scare the hell out of me most of the time. It really sad that it has come to this. But half the time I fee like they OWN the streets. We're all afraid of them. I wonder how they got so Blood thirsty. It seems they love these killing sprees and get a real kick out of it. The kids who killed this poor boy... I wonder where they are now? So have they just gone back to their own lives, their homes, their families, even though they're just killed someone. How do they feel? Good ? like they've achieved something? Are they just going about acting normal now as though they've not done anything bad? Its so wierd? Are they really that heartless? Surely they'll have mothers, fathers, cousins, siblings... How would they feel if one of their own was stabbed on the street like a dog? Its almost like they've lost their humanity? These kids are almost less than human. That terrifies me. And more so i keep looking out of my window nad wondering.. do they live around here are they still here somewhere? Have i walked past one of these kids? Anyway we're planning to move out of the area. I have a 10month old son and I don't want to lose him to a senseles killing in 10 years time. I think young black boys really are in danger, even the ones who are good boys and not part of gangs. My husband and I just aren't prepared to take the risk with our children. Its a shame that it seems to be mainly black youth doing this. I'm heart broken.
Another thing that niggles at the back of my mind is that if the parents of any of these children have suspicions that their child was part of this murder i wonder if they would give them up or harbour them, even though they know that their child is possibly a murderer WHO HAS TAKEN THE LIFE OF A FELLOW HUMAN BEING IN COLD BLOOD???????????????
????????????????????
Another thing that niggles at the back of my mind is that if the parents of any of these children have suspicions that their child was part of this murder i wonder if they would give them up or harbour them, even though they know that their child is possibly a murderer WHO HAS TAKEN THE LIFE OF A FELLOW HUMAN BEING IN COLD BLOOD???????????????
????????????????????
H, Rural Gloucestershire says...
11:25pm Fri 4 Jul 08
I hadn't heard about this incident until I had a link to an online newspaper. I used to live in T.H, born in Mayday Hosp. It is not the only place I have lived as a child where there has been stabbings, I also lived in Carshalton (Beeches part) and knew the road where the little children died recently , probably by the hands of their Mother.
It firstly makes me sad to hear these things, secondly it makes me wary of revisiting the places I remember so well, like Beaulah infant school. I have not been to T. H. for a long time-I left the London area 25 yrs ago but some of my relations still live in Croydon and I would like to visit them. As they live in "nice" areas, in property they own, I don't suppose it would be a problem, by car. I used to regulary travel from C.B to West Croydon age 11 on a sat for private violin lessons and to T.H. at I think 15 to go to a youth club at the Congregational church, where my Dad played the organ when I was very small. I only once recall the train being held up by a gang of youths.
I seem to recall seeing a tv programme recently where some black lads told how their own area (forget where) was ok to walk in but go off it and you had problems. This reminded me of what I read about New York, and "Run baby Run" by Niky Cruz in the 60's, I think. Are parts of London like this?
I must admit there are some parts of my town (population 6500 approx) I do not feel happy about walking around, in the evening, due to loud mouthed, disrespectful youngsters hanging about. We get their rubbish everywhere even in little brooks next to quiet country footpaths and recently "tags" have been appearing on property.
I notice someone mentioned they might have witnessed something, have they tried ringing Crimestoppers?
It firstly makes me sad to hear these things, secondly it makes me wary of revisiting the places I remember so well, like Beaulah infant school. I have not been to T. H. for a long time-I left the London area 25 yrs ago but some of my relations still live in Croydon and I would like to visit them. As they live in "nice" areas, in property they own, I don't suppose it would be a problem, by car. I used to regulary travel from C.B to West Croydon age 11 on a sat for private violin lessons and to T.H. at I think 15 to go to a youth club at the Congregational church, where my Dad played the organ when I was very small. I only once recall the train being held up by a gang of youths.
I seem to recall seeing a tv programme recently where some black lads told how their own area (forget where) was ok to walk in but go off it and you had problems. This reminded me of what I read about New York, and "Run baby Run" by Niky Cruz in the 60's, I think. Are parts of London like this?
I must admit there are some parts of my town (population 6500 approx) I do not feel happy about walking around, in the evening, due to loud mouthed, disrespectful youngsters hanging about. We get their rubbish everywhere even in little brooks next to quiet country footpaths and recently "tags" have been appearing on property.
I notice someone mentioned they might have witnessed something, have they tried ringing Crimestoppers?
jo, sutton says...
11:42pm Fri 4 Jul 08
X - spot the pattern:
police = racist
black = yob
asian = wife basher
white = privileged
Answer - all pathetic boxes people stick the unknown into in order to make life easier and move responsibility away from themselves. By saying every cop is racist is also saying every black is a knife wielding yob, which is simply untrue. Everyone is different and this is primarily down to their upbringing - a white kid brought up with irresponsible, unloving layabout parents is as likely to pick up a knife as a black kid in a similar environment. As for Shantelle saying at 16 you are no longer a kid and parents are not responsible for your behaviour is simply untrue - if during your childhood your parents tell you violence is unacceptable then you are more likely to follow this through your whole life. I hope the parents are found guilty of failing their parental duties and sentenced to long prison sentences too - maybe then parents will take more responsibility and do more to control their children – even if it means taking away Playstations, TVs and mobile’s regardless of the kids ownership status over equipment bought by their parents.
police = racist
black = yob
asian = wife basher
white = privileged
Answer - all pathetic boxes people stick the unknown into in order to make life easier and move responsibility away from themselves. By saying every cop is racist is also saying every black is a knife wielding yob, which is simply untrue. Everyone is different and this is primarily down to their upbringing - a white kid brought up with irresponsible, unloving layabout parents is as likely to pick up a knife as a black kid in a similar environment. As for Shantelle saying at 16 you are no longer a kid and parents are not responsible for your behaviour is simply untrue - if during your childhood your parents tell you violence is unacceptable then you are more likely to follow this through your whole life. I hope the parents are found guilty of failing their parental duties and sentenced to long prison sentences too - maybe then parents will take more responsibility and do more to control their children – even if it means taking away Playstations, TVs and mobile’s regardless of the kids ownership status over equipment bought by their parents.
jo, sutton says...
11:58pm Fri 4 Jul 08
X - I hope everyone reads your last 2 posts as a perfect example of how it is environment which shapes a person, not solely colour or race - if more black AND white kids were brought up with discipline and values like you and I then there would be a lot less teen crime
Lisa, thornton heath says...
12:30am Sat 5 Jul 08
I cant begin to say how sorry i am for your lose. He was so young how could people do this. There sick and if the ppl how did this can see this coz i hope u can live with yourself noone deserves that.
Heartbroken Londoner, Thornton Heath says...
12:47am Sat 5 Jul 08
Tyler, you are right. Most of the stabbings in London are by black boys. HOWEVER in working class white areas like estates in Glasgow, the majority of the teenagers terrorising local people are white yobs - raping, stabbing each other, committing burglaries, drinking too much and littering the environment. Oh and then there are the senseless Psycopathic murders. You may have noticed that MOST serial killers, for some reason, are white. It does seem that there are crimes which are typically attributed to certain races. So yes gang-related crimes and youth stabbings in inner cities do tend to be amongst blacks but then also serial killers and alchohol-related crimes tend to be amongst whites. As a black woman I'm very unlikely to be bludgeoned to death and then raped (when I'm dead) or have any other such sick thing happen to me because the white men who do these things tend to prefer white women. THANK GOD!
roberta, croydon says...
6:36am Sat 5 Jul 08
We have a major problem with black youths in croydon and rather than face upto the problem and try to do something about it - we get comments like the one below 'the police wouldn't tell me what was going on because I am black if I was white they would'
A disgusting comment and attitudes like this has meant a lot of the black youth of london have grown up with no repect for authority or even other human beings.
I am shaking with rage at this comment - and hope that this is a lone voice amongst the black community in croydon.
A disgusting comment and attitudes like this has meant a lot of the black youth of london have grown up with no repect for authority or even other human beings.
I am shaking with rage at this comment - and hope that this is a lone voice amongst the black community in croydon.
A, Thornton Heath says...
11:14am Sat 5 Jul 08
Has anyone stopped to think that the reason it appears that the black youth carry out the majority of these crimes is because of the ratio of black/white/indian etc in the area? Its not because they are the only people that go out and commit these crimes its just that the area may be populated more by black youth than white, look at the young boy in liverpool his killer/s were white again because the area is probably populated mainly by white youth. Lets address the situation and help all young people rather than pinpointing/blaming one race. I hope people will come forward and give any information they can to show these people that we are not scared to speak out and we will not tolerate this behaviour.
Sandi, says...
12:12pm Sat 5 Jul 08
I am sitting here crying, what a beautiful child. If he were mine my world would have ended the minute he took his last breath. How can anyone recover from pain like that. And as for you, yes you the children that took his life, what was going through your mind when you carried out this devilish act? I read that there was a young girl with the gang. Well to all of you children who took this boys life, when the days and weeks start to go by, your head starts to hurt and you have trouble sleeping, when you are bragging to your friends what a "bad man or nasty girl" you are remember in time come this will return to haunt you. "No bad deeds goes unpunished" I bet you were tucked up in bed all nice and warm and safe in your mother's home, because obviously your not grown ups and have no responsibilities to talk of (oh sorry topping up your mobile so you can show off, apparently having three phones is the thing, I forget how itelligent you look with you business like immage aged 14 ! - you idiots. (Parents are you so insecure yourselves that you provide these things for your childen - one phone is safety, more than this is vanity) And to all parents both black and white stop destroying your children by giving them the world of material things and not teaching them what really matters in this world which is love and respect. I am fed up with the arguing about blacks and whites and who would do what to who depending on their colour. This is nonsense, stop arguing about race, because this argument has been going on since the time of slavery, what has changed? Nothing. We all should be looking to our own groups and find a solution to why we have problems within our communities, not blaming others because of the colour of their skin. Black and White are the only colour shades of people that exist in this country, hello!. Find a solution not another excuse to blame another race for the society that we live in. To whoever bothers to read this take another look at this lovely little boy and think about what has happened, then think of a way to help stop the downward spirial affecting our communities. To those parents who know their child was involed, to those parents whose child came home and told them they know who did this, pick up the phone and call the POLICE NOW!!! This could have been your child who died. Do the right thing.
Sandi
Sandi
Duncan, Warlingham says...
1:37pm Sat 5 Jul 08
I think these people who carried out this sickening attack are nothing but COWARDS!!! thats right COWARDS!! have to cover your faces. Not "man" enough to show yourself and have to use COWARDLY weapons.
You are weak and pathetic when you are on your own.
I hope that you are reading this.
You are weak and pathetic when you are on your own.
I hope that you are reading this.
Suzie, Thornton Heath says...
1:56pm Sat 5 Jul 08
I am terriby sad and sickened at what has happened in my community.
I have just come in from Croydon town centre and it is crawling with police (at least 4 big vans full) outside Allders.
Nice to have a presence at last, but why did it take a teen death and a hunt for 6 murderers before we had police on foot? That said I bet they are only about this weekend. I also notice that there were none around the Crescent on my way back through.
I hope the parents are "man" enough to turn the Cowards in that did this.
My thoughts are with the family.
I have just come in from Croydon town centre and it is crawling with police (at least 4 big vans full) outside Allders.
Nice to have a presence at last, but why did it take a teen death and a hunt for 6 murderers before we had police on foot? That said I bet they are only about this weekend. I also notice that there were none around the Crescent on my way back through.
I hope the parents are "man" enough to turn the Cowards in that did this.
My thoughts are with the family.
Vortigern, London says...
3:40pm Sat 5 Jul 08
Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding. It is time to stop the liberal and complacent attitude we have adopted towards ethnic minorities.
The idealism where they can do no wrong, they are under privileged and discriminated against and we are to blame for their anti-social actions and lot in life.
Primitive, violent individuals are preying on us and hiding behind Human rights as a form of total immunity.
ItÂ’s never their fault.
If they wonÂ’t take responsibility for their actions itÂ’s time to remove them once and for all. Time to remove an inherently violent subset from our society for the better of the vast majority native to this once great country. We welcomed them to this land, we tried to educate and culture them and they spat in our faces.
If wolves take your sheep, pitying the wolf or trying to offer a friendly hand will only get you bit.
Killing the odd wolf will only slow the losses. To solve the problem the whole pride, cubs and all must be slaughtered one and all.
The idealism where they can do no wrong, they are under privileged and discriminated against and we are to blame for their anti-social actions and lot in life.
Primitive, violent individuals are preying on us and hiding behind Human rights as a form of total immunity.
ItÂ’s never their fault.
If they wonÂ’t take responsibility for their actions itÂ’s time to remove them once and for all. Time to remove an inherently violent subset from our society for the better of the vast majority native to this once great country. We welcomed them to this land, we tried to educate and culture them and they spat in our faces.
If wolves take your sheep, pitying the wolf or trying to offer a friendly hand will only get you bit.
Killing the odd wolf will only slow the losses. To solve the problem the whole pride, cubs and all must be slaughtered one and all.
Georgina x, says...
12:02am Sun 6 Jul 08
wow, this article made me cry :(..
- Rest In Paradise though.
Fallen Soldier hangtight up there. Everything will be ok..
Im sure you will be missed by family and friends, and even people that didnt no you thoughts are with you always.
x
- Rest In Paradise though.
Fallen Soldier hangtight up there. Everything will be ok..
Im sure you will be missed by family and friends, and even people that didnt no you thoughts are with you always.
x
c, says...
11:30am Sun 6 Jul 08
mastermind wrote:The Government needs to do something??? What about their families should they not be doing something. right and wrong does start at home. people moan that the government try to tell us how to live (no smoking in public etc) but when it comes down to something like young people being killed, stabbed, shot why does the buck then stop with them? God that annoys me.
i went past it twice today... and i was there for a while speakin to police and to da guy from the daily mirror, its crazy... i dnno wot reason these ppl had to do that, but no reason justifies killing sumone or trying to... all these yungers need to grow up... these young ppl dont get the chance to grow up and realise wot theyre doin is stupid...coz theyve got no one to tell them otherwise...the government needs to do sumfin.....
Broken hearted Londoner, Thornton Heath says...
4:16pm Sun 6 Jul 08
I must respond to VORTIGERN. I always find it so sad when people make generalised ill informed sweeping statements. Yes there is a problem here amongst black youth that needs to be addressed. But please please please spare me the whole ‘we welcomed them here, educated and cultured them and then they spat in our face’ crap. For a start, the black people who were brought over during the Windrush from the West Indies were brought over to bridge the labour gap so they could rebuild post war Britain. In fact Enoch Powell, the Conservative MP, had been among those politicians who had encouraged Caribbean people to come to Britain in the immediate post-war period to combat labour shortages in essential services. This is some 20 years before he was to make his infamous ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech. I guess once they were done rebuilding his great nation he wanted them to **** off back home home. Charming !
Before the mass immigrations of the 1940s, Britain was made great not by the so-called British natives but again by black people. First from the 400 years of slavery and then the British colonialism of India, West and central Africa where they oppressed the ‘natives’ there and took control of all their natural resources, such as Palm oil, coffee, tea and cocoa. Any attempts of freedom by those people were met with brute violence. During the 1st world war, African people from the colonised areas were drafted in to fight and die to for a Queen and a country not their own. These fallen African soldiers are nowhere honored along with the white British soldiers who fought.
HereÂ’s an interesting history lesson for you: the welfare state was founded on the surplus wealth made by slavery. To break this down. HereÂ’s an example. Imagine if Tescos didnÂ’t pay their workers. That would mean that when they made their great profits they wouldnÂ’t need to pay any salaries and that would amount to extra millions they could put towards their profits. Well that was how Great Britain was able to create so much wealth. From the unawarded sweat of African people. That is how they were able to start the welfare state where every citizen could be offered a financial safety net.
It amazes me when people whine about foreigners coming here and spoiling the society when the UK has one of the worst historical records of human rights abuse and the destruction of societies and cultures around the world. Infact most of the old British money from the aristocracy right to the Monarchy is slave money and many of the old British Aristocratic families are descendants of slave owners. Think about that the next time you pass all those madly expensive properties around such places in Central London like Belgravia and South Kensington.
So, coming back to the point in discussion, yes there is a big problem with black youth and gang culture and it does need immediate addressing but to say that foreigners are coming here to spoil the society is a cheek when the British have been the architect of so much human misery in exchange for great wealth. I guess what goes around, comes back round. DonÂ’t expect to go round robbing peopleÂ’s of their houses and then wonder why the homeless are then coming to **** in your backyard.
If, like me, you are a bit of a scholar and interested in 'the truth by all means' then please feel free to go check out these facts for yourself. Go to libraries, the British museum, seach archives and the internet, read some books and arm yourself with the truth about HOW and WHO made Britain great.
X
Before the mass immigrations of the 1940s, Britain was made great not by the so-called British natives but again by black people. First from the 400 years of slavery and then the British colonialism of India, West and central Africa where they oppressed the ‘natives’ there and took control of all their natural resources, such as Palm oil, coffee, tea and cocoa. Any attempts of freedom by those people were met with brute violence. During the 1st world war, African people from the colonised areas were drafted in to fight and die to for a Queen and a country not their own. These fallen African soldiers are nowhere honored along with the white British soldiers who fought.
HereÂ’s an interesting history lesson for you: the welfare state was founded on the surplus wealth made by slavery. To break this down. HereÂ’s an example. Imagine if Tescos didnÂ’t pay their workers. That would mean that when they made their great profits they wouldnÂ’t need to pay any salaries and that would amount to extra millions they could put towards their profits. Well that was how Great Britain was able to create so much wealth. From the unawarded sweat of African people. That is how they were able to start the welfare state where every citizen could be offered a financial safety net.
It amazes me when people whine about foreigners coming here and spoiling the society when the UK has one of the worst historical records of human rights abuse and the destruction of societies and cultures around the world. Infact most of the old British money from the aristocracy right to the Monarchy is slave money and many of the old British Aristocratic families are descendants of slave owners. Think about that the next time you pass all those madly expensive properties around such places in Central London like Belgravia and South Kensington.
So, coming back to the point in discussion, yes there is a big problem with black youth and gang culture and it does need immediate addressing but to say that foreigners are coming here to spoil the society is a cheek when the British have been the architect of so much human misery in exchange for great wealth. I guess what goes around, comes back round. DonÂ’t expect to go round robbing peopleÂ’s of their houses and then wonder why the homeless are then coming to **** in your backyard.
If, like me, you are a bit of a scholar and interested in 'the truth by all means' then please feel free to go check out these facts for yourself. Go to libraries, the British museum, seach archives and the internet, read some books and arm yourself with the truth about HOW and WHO made Britain great.
X
Factoid, reality says...
4:52pm Sun 6 Jul 08
Dear Broken hearted Londoner - You are living in the past, wake up to the here and now!
Facts and statistics speak for themselves, not naive opinions....!
Facts and statistics speak for themselves, not naive opinions....!
Heart Broken Londoner, Thornton Heath says...
5:14pm Sun 6 Jul 08
Hello Factoid
Facts and figures have their place too. They just create context. Anything happening today has a root somewhere. If you suddenly developed cancer, the Doctor's would look into your family history and lifestyle to try and work out how you came to have it. They wouldn't say well we can see you have cancer, the fact speaks for itself and therefore considering anything else is naive.
i just think that there always seems to be one group blaming another group. Natives say foreigners, foreigners say poverty and racism and exclusion. History plays its part when we try to understand why there are so many immigrants here in the first place - mainly from the places that Britain once colonised and helped destroy. British mercenaries still fuel coups and political unrest in Africa (remember Mark Thatcher) so that they can make money and get rich. The consequesnce? more people fleeing from Africa and landing on UK's shores adn annoying the 'natives'. There is a bigger picture to the reasons for high immigration and Britain has a big part to play in that....
But all due respect, I see where you're coming from too.
Facts and figures have their place too. They just create context. Anything happening today has a root somewhere. If you suddenly developed cancer, the Doctor's would look into your family history and lifestyle to try and work out how you came to have it. They wouldn't say well we can see you have cancer, the fact speaks for itself and therefore considering anything else is naive.
i just think that there always seems to be one group blaming another group. Natives say foreigners, foreigners say poverty and racism and exclusion. History plays its part when we try to understand why there are so many immigrants here in the first place - mainly from the places that Britain once colonised and helped destroy. British mercenaries still fuel coups and political unrest in Africa (remember Mark Thatcher) so that they can make money and get rich. The consequesnce? more people fleeing from Africa and landing on UK's shores adn annoying the 'natives'. There is a bigger picture to the reasons for high immigration and Britain has a big part to play in that....
But all due respect, I see where you're coming from too.
Cronulla, UK says...
5:19pm Sun 6 Jul 08
C said "This is getting frightening. Time for a Knife Amnesty" - if you're being sarcastic, fine otherwise grow up. Amnesties are a cop out, the law abiding give up theirs, the bad guys dont.
Jacob said "Why the hell does the 'race card' have to come out yet again?" - er, because Jacob its central to the debate. Until thats faced up to nothing will change. Knife crime IS black crime. Face it, liberal handwring about "why", "gangs", "troubled youth" etc is pointless.
Shirley said "One black boy dies in a knife incident, and two more pick up knives because they feel they need to protect themselves. Whilst this is mainly a problem in the black community, it's the responsibility of everyone to plough resources into the solution.
One black boy dies in a knife incident, and two more pick up knives because they feel they need to protect themselves.
Whilst this is mainly a problem in the black community, it's the responsibility of everyone to plough resources into the solution." - thats what already happens Shirley, blacks commit crime, whites pay to prevent it, solve it, avoid it, repair the damage and get to be the victims too. So yes, everyone is involved.
Jacob said "Why the hell does the 'race card' have to come out yet again?" - er, because Jacob its central to the debate. Until thats faced up to nothing will change. Knife crime IS black crime. Face it, liberal handwring about "why", "gangs", "troubled youth" etc is pointless.
Shirley said "One black boy dies in a knife incident, and two more pick up knives because they feel they need to protect themselves. Whilst this is mainly a problem in the black community, it's the responsibility of everyone to plough resources into the solution.
One black boy dies in a knife incident, and two more pick up knives because they feel they need to protect themselves.
Whilst this is mainly a problem in the black community, it's the responsibility of everyone to plough resources into the solution." - thats what already happens Shirley, blacks commit crime, whites pay to prevent it, solve it, avoid it, repair the damage and get to be the victims too. So yes, everyone is involved.
Vortigern, London says...
6:07pm Sun 6 Jul 08
Australia has the right idea about immigration. Only allow people in who bring some benefit to the country. As for uneducated, criminal scum floating over from Indonesia, park your Navy off the coast, point a 5 inch Mk 45 gun at the them and say turn around or we'll open fire.
If only we were so bold against the ethnic turds we harbour after other countries have conveniently flush them.
Instant and immediate expulsion for any ethnic responsible of a crime against a native white, if Liberty play the ‘Human rights’ card. ‘You can’t send them back as they might get a slap from their own county’. Then we leave the European Convention on Human Rights before it allows these creatures to destroy our country.
If only we were so bold against the ethnic turds we harbour after other countries have conveniently flush them.
Instant and immediate expulsion for any ethnic responsible of a crime against a native white, if Liberty play the ‘Human rights’ card. ‘You can’t send them back as they might get a slap from their own county’. Then we leave the European Convention on Human Rights before it allows these creatures to destroy our country.
Heartoken Londoner, Thornton Heath says...
6:17pm Sun 6 Jul 08
Yes Cronulla, IÂ’m with you on the whole Amnesty thing. Not sure why hardened gun yielding gangsters would hand in their weapons simply because they were asked to. If they were that nice they wouldnÂ’t be stabbing anyone in the first place surelyÂ…?
My parents are Nigerian immigrants who came here in the 60s. I was born and raised in the UK and see it as home but now I really just want out. I am married and have 2 small children but my husband and I are scared to death of this increasing gang violence. I was brought up by extremely strict parents and have no experience of ‘street culture’. I am one of the least educated people in my family because I only have a first degree whilst most of my cousins have a Masters! In my immediate environment strong family values and education are what’s important and this is how we try to raise our children but I am afraid that what I do inside the home might not be enough to combat what’s going on outside the home. In Nigeria we still have very strong discipline and corporate punishment in schools. I do smack my children when they are naughty but the law here takes away your power as a parent because you’re not actually supposed to smack your children or discipline them how you see fit. My father always tells me how he got disciplined with a belt when he was a teenage boy. Well it instilled honesty, a hardworking ethic, integrity, good manners and personal discipline in him. If that was to happen today the Social services would whisk you off to a Home that turns out delinquents. I feel sad at the fact that because knife crimes are committed largely by black youth, white society now tarnishes all hardworking, decent black people with the same brush. On a larger scale British youth in general – black, white, Asian seem to be so terrible. While blacks are knifing each other, white yobs are embarrassing the country at football matches, drinking too much and terrorising their own communities. I was in Reading last weekend (away from Thornton Heath and the black youth) only to come face to face with a large drunk and disorderly group of teenage white kids swearing and threatening each other with broken bottles in the town centre at 8.00 in the evening. So it’s everywhere across the board. Frankly I’ve had enough. When I was young having a good time was going to poetry and Spoken word events. In my early twenties I used to go to the Guardian Hay Festival. I loved literature, learning, travelling and I wasn’t brought up in a privileged background. I was brought up in a council flat in South London. My mum is a nurse and my father is a Technician, but the core values they instilled in me and my sisters went a long way.
My husband and I are so afraid of bringing up our little son and daughter in this country (and especially sending them to any of the local failing schools around South London) that we have decided to go and live in Nigeria. It s a big decision for us but we think itÂ’s the right thing. I see how people who have grown up back in Ghana or Nigeria are compared to young black people brought up in the UK.
My parents are Nigerian immigrants who came here in the 60s. I was born and raised in the UK and see it as home but now I really just want out. I am married and have 2 small children but my husband and I are scared to death of this increasing gang violence. I was brought up by extremely strict parents and have no experience of ‘street culture’. I am one of the least educated people in my family because I only have a first degree whilst most of my cousins have a Masters! In my immediate environment strong family values and education are what’s important and this is how we try to raise our children but I am afraid that what I do inside the home might not be enough to combat what’s going on outside the home. In Nigeria we still have very strong discipline and corporate punishment in schools. I do smack my children when they are naughty but the law here takes away your power as a parent because you’re not actually supposed to smack your children or discipline them how you see fit. My father always tells me how he got disciplined with a belt when he was a teenage boy. Well it instilled honesty, a hardworking ethic, integrity, good manners and personal discipline in him. If that was to happen today the Social services would whisk you off to a Home that turns out delinquents. I feel sad at the fact that because knife crimes are committed largely by black youth, white society now tarnishes all hardworking, decent black people with the same brush. On a larger scale British youth in general – black, white, Asian seem to be so terrible. While blacks are knifing each other, white yobs are embarrassing the country at football matches, drinking too much and terrorising their own communities. I was in Reading last weekend (away from Thornton Heath and the black youth) only to come face to face with a large drunk and disorderly group of teenage white kids swearing and threatening each other with broken bottles in the town centre at 8.00 in the evening. So it’s everywhere across the board. Frankly I’ve had enough. When I was young having a good time was going to poetry and Spoken word events. In my early twenties I used to go to the Guardian Hay Festival. I loved literature, learning, travelling and I wasn’t brought up in a privileged background. I was brought up in a council flat in South London. My mum is a nurse and my father is a Technician, but the core values they instilled in me and my sisters went a long way.
My husband and I are so afraid of bringing up our little son and daughter in this country (and especially sending them to any of the local failing schools around South London) that we have decided to go and live in Nigeria. It s a big decision for us but we think itÂ’s the right thing. I see how people who have grown up back in Ghana or Nigeria are compared to young black people brought up in the UK.
Halle, Cheam says...
9:20am Mon 7 Jul 08
X wrote:I dont think that the police's actions were a racial attack at all - at the time they had a lot on their hands and sadly there are a lot of sick people out there that get pleasure out of others missery, and would have wanted to be in the middle of the whole tragic drama (I don't mean you X) so the police have to be very careful about the info they give away.
I saw a gang of youths acting suspiciously about 1.35pm in the area just before the incident. I just found out about it and went to the Police at the scene. I told them I saw suspicious behaviour at 1.35pm and asked them what time the crime had happened in case it had nothing to do with the youths. Would you believe that not one of the four officers could tell me the time it happened. They suggested I find out by looking at the ITN website!! Maybe if I'd been white they might have taken more notice - I guess to the Police this is just another black on black incident which will be all too soon forgotten....
It really irratates me when other races claim 'racism' - I totally understand that not all black people are bad and violent - but you have to admit X, that over half of these stabbings have involved young black males, and it usually ends up being gang related.
I would like to send my condolences to this young man and his family - an absolute tragidy - what a total waste of a life.
RIP xxx
A, Thornton Heath says...
12:38pm Mon 7 Jul 08
Heartoken Londoner wrote:Heartbroken, your comment - white society tarnishes all etc etc, you yourself are tarnishing all white society with the same brush and I for one am not of that opinion.
Yes Cronulla, I’m with you on the whole Amnesty thing. Not sure why hardened gun yielding gangsters would hand in their weapons simply because they were asked to. If they were that nice they wouldn’t be stabbing anyone in the first place surely…? My parents are Nigerian immigrants who came here in the 60s. I was born and raised in the UK and see it as home but now I really just want out. I am married and have 2 small children but my husband and I are scared to death of this increasing gang violence. I was brought up by extremely strict parents and have no experience of ‘street culture’. I am one of the least educated people in my family because I only have a first degree whilst most of my cousins have a Masters! In my immediate environment strong family values and education are what’s important and this is how we try to raise our children but I am afraid that what I do inside the home might not be enough to combat what’s going on outside the home. In Nigeria we still have very strong discipline and corporate punishment in schools. I do smack my children when they are naughty but the law here takes away your power as a parent because you’re not actually supposed to smack your children or discipline them how you see fit. My father always tells me how he got disciplined with a belt when he was a teenage boy. Well it instilled honesty, a hardworking ethic, integrity, good manners and personal discipline in him. If that was to happen today the Social services would whisk you off to a Home that turns out delinquents. I feel sad at the fact that because knife crimes are committed largely by black youth, white society now tarnishes all hardworking, decent black people with the same brush. On a larger scale British youth in general – black, white, Asian seem to be so terrible. While blacks are knifing each other, white yobs are embarrassing the country at football matches, drinking too much and terrorising their own communities. I was in Reading last weekend (away from Thornton Heath and the black youth) only to come face to face with a large drunk and disorderly group of teenage white kids swearing and threatening each other with broken bottles in the town centre at 8.00 in the evening. So it’s everywhere across the board. Frankly I’ve had enough. When I was young having a good time was going to poetry and Spoken word events. In my early twenties I used to go to the Guardian Hay Festival. I loved literature, learning, travelling and I wasn’t brought up in a privileged background. I was brought up in a council flat in South London. My mum is a nurse and my father is a Technician, but the core values they instilled in me and my sisters went a long way. My husband and I are so afraid of bringing up our little son and daughter in this country (and especially sending them to any of the local failing schools around South London) that we have decided to go and live in Nigeria. It s a big decision for us but we think it’s the right thing. I see how people who have grown up back in Ghana or Nigeria are compared to young black people brought up in the UK.
Heartbroken Londoner, Thornton Heath says...
8:38pm Mon 7 Jul 08
I appreciate your comment A.
Tony, London says...
1:22am Tue 8 Jul 08
See this yob posing on facebook with a knife & gun acting like a gangsta....
He got what he deserved....good riddance
He got what he deserved....good riddance
Joseph, says...
6:39am Tue 8 Jul 08
Some good stuff there Heartbroken Londoner, especially in the first post.
IMO the roots of these problems are entrenched in social deprivation and alienation by society, look at Glasgow , they have a much higher murder rate and far worse knife culture problem than we do here in London and there is virtually no black people there.
But the youths there like the youths in London are being alienated by society, they don't know or see where they fit in and instead get involved with gangs to feel a sense of belonging and identity.
People try to say it`s a cultural thing with blacks, but if you loook at the kids that are involved in this stuff a large number are of Afro-caribbean heritage. Whereas the first generation of Afro caribbean immigrants into this country, were virtually all god fearing hardworking law abiding citizens, and gun and knife crime amongst them was not at all prevalent, so it was not part of their culture.
I don't really know the solution, my feeling is that unless you can make these kids feel included and part of society , the problem will remain, tougher sentencing may help, but the kids involved in these crimes have little regard for consequence, a lot of them believe their lives aren't of much value anyway.
One thing for sure is that pointing the finger and saying it is just a black problem because its part of the culture, is not going to help the situation in the slightest and if anything will just further alienate these kids.
This is the whole of society`s problem just like it is in Glasgow where the kids involved in the gangs are all white.
A lot of it is also to do with these kids having low aspirations and ambitions ,the parents and schools must take more responsibility in ensuring these kids set their sights higher, and try to instill in them the self belief that they can go on and achieve something in life.
IMO the roots of these problems are entrenched in social deprivation and alienation by society, look at Glasgow , they have a much higher murder rate and far worse knife culture problem than we do here in London and there is virtually no black people there.
But the youths there like the youths in London are being alienated by society, they don't know or see where they fit in and instead get involved with gangs to feel a sense of belonging and identity.
People try to say it`s a cultural thing with blacks, but if you loook at the kids that are involved in this stuff a large number are of Afro-caribbean heritage. Whereas the first generation of Afro caribbean immigrants into this country, were virtually all god fearing hardworking law abiding citizens, and gun and knife crime amongst them was not at all prevalent, so it was not part of their culture.
I don't really know the solution, my feeling is that unless you can make these kids feel included and part of society , the problem will remain, tougher sentencing may help, but the kids involved in these crimes have little regard for consequence, a lot of them believe their lives aren't of much value anyway.
One thing for sure is that pointing the finger and saying it is just a black problem because its part of the culture, is not going to help the situation in the slightest and if anything will just further alienate these kids.
This is the whole of society`s problem just like it is in Glasgow where the kids involved in the gangs are all white.
A lot of it is also to do with these kids having low aspirations and ambitions ,the parents and schools must take more responsibility in ensuring these kids set their sights higher, and try to instill in them the self belief that they can go on and achieve something in life.
George, Thonrton Heath says...
5:12pm Wed 9 Jul 08
So the boy was 16 and from Deptford, so he was a certified gang member who thought he was cool when posing with guns and knives on the internet, so he called for his 'mum' and cried out how he didn't want to die as they took him away, so now heÂ’s gone leaving a wake of pain and sorrow, just another statistic of the lunacy that grips our youth todayÂ….
I see his Father and friends came down to the spot where he met his fate and weep. I read all kind of tributes to this young ‘loving son’ come ‘urban foot solider’ and to be honest feel no sympathy whatsoever. For those who live by the sword should expect to die by the sword, at the very least. But hey, I guess it’s easy for me to just dismiss this tragedy, as yet another gang banger getting their just rewards, easy to sit back and join the clamour to ‘bring back hanging’. Much harder I guess to stand up and help do something to try and rescue, yes rescue our children, our future. For a great man once said “if you’re not part of the solution, then your part of the problem….” I for one feel haunted by these words; let’s put aside our anger, for one moment, at the senselessness of this current gang, knife and gun culture. Let’s instead face up to that hardest question of all……what I can do to help! To prevent this mindless slaughter of the innocents…….he cried for his mother remember hardly the hardened gang member he would have us believe eh!
I see his Father and friends came down to the spot where he met his fate and weep. I read all kind of tributes to this young ‘loving son’ come ‘urban foot solider’ and to be honest feel no sympathy whatsoever. For those who live by the sword should expect to die by the sword, at the very least. But hey, I guess it’s easy for me to just dismiss this tragedy, as yet another gang banger getting their just rewards, easy to sit back and join the clamour to ‘bring back hanging’. Much harder I guess to stand up and help do something to try and rescue, yes rescue our children, our future. For a great man once said “if you’re not part of the solution, then your part of the problem….” I for one feel haunted by these words; let’s put aside our anger, for one moment, at the senselessness of this current gang, knife and gun culture. Let’s instead face up to that hardest question of all……what I can do to help! To prevent this mindless slaughter of the innocents…….he cried for his mother remember hardly the hardened gang member he would have us believe eh!
Vortigern, LOndon says...
10:27pm Wed 9 Jul 08
Ethnics have made this country unsafe for all true Britons. Our governing body is too weak and complacent to act.
I have a shaved head and get looks from filth who should not have the luxury of breathing the same air as me. The blood of the Iceni flows in my veins; this county has been the birthright of my ancestors for thousands of years, who are these migrants to even look at me.
It is time for action. Their recurring primitive violent intent has given us all the excuse we need.
I have a shaved head and get looks from filth who should not have the luxury of breathing the same air as me. The blood of the Iceni flows in my veins; this county has been the birthright of my ancestors for thousands of years, who are these migrants to even look at me.
It is time for action. Their recurring primitive violent intent has given us all the excuse we need.
WAblo, says...
3:52am Thu 10 Jul 08
RE Vortggn
You sound so far up yourself I`m surprised your not coming out of your mouth(if you aren't)
The thing is you sound like you were born a complete moron and no amount of "noble" ancestry can change this fact.These people you say give you "looks", probably don't know of your "great" heritage, and just take they as you find you.....A complete k unt.
You sound so far up yourself I`m surprised your not coming out of your mouth(if you aren't)
The thing is you sound like you were born a complete moron and no amount of "noble" ancestry can change this fact.These people you say give you "looks", probably don't know of your "great" heritage, and just take they as you find you.....A complete k unt.
C, SW London says...
12:55pm Thu 10 Jul 08
Vortigern wrote:You racist. You make me feel ashamed to be caucasian. How about you jump up your own a*** and die.
Ethnics have made this country unsafe for all true Britons. Our governing body is too weak and complacent to act. I have a shaved head and get looks from filth who should not have the luxury of breathing the same air as me. The blood of the Iceni flows in my veins; this county has been the birthright of my ancestors for thousands of years, who are these migrants to even look at me. It is time for action. Their recurring primitive violent intent has given us all the excuse we need.
Bob Peel, Croydon says...
4:00pm Thu 10 Jul 08
Vortigern wrote:"The blood of the Iceni flows in my veins....."
Ethnics have made this country unsafe for all true Britons. Our governing body is too weak and complacent to act.
I have a shaved head and get looks from filth who should not have the luxury of breathing the same air as me. The blood of the Iceni flows in my veins; this county has been the birthright of my ancestors for thousands of years, who are these migrants to even look at me.
It is time for action. Their recurring primitive violent intent has given us all the excuse we need.
You queer then Vortigern?
Cronulla, says...
2:49am Fri 11 Jul 08
WAblo, C & Bob Peel, guess you are happy now at last there is somebody for you to actively attack on this thread - a white person saying something you are uncomfortable with.
If only your invective were unleashed on violent black youth and their politically correct white enablers.
Alas its not to be.
If only your invective were unleashed on violent black youth and their politically correct white enablers.
Alas its not to be.
Heartbroken Londoner, Thornton Heath says...
12:30am Sun 13 Jul 08
Hi C, I totally understand where you're coming from BUT 'separating' problems doesn't solve them. knife crime in South London is a problem, yes we're all agreed but the UK is much bigger than South London. only 2% of the whole of the UK is made up of black people, but youth crime is a UK-wide problem. White youths are terrorising their communities in places like Cornwall, Glasgow and other places where there are hardly any black people. Football hooligans are majority white people.
Serial killers, Much of the deviant sexual crimes like Necrophillia (people who have sex with corpses) and Paedophiles are almost always white crimes and we all know that the UK has its FAIR share of them.
In short, the UK has so much violent crime all over and the 2% of the population that are black surely cannot be responsible for ALL that crime !
Come to think of it, if all the black youth suddenly disappeared, all that would happen is that you'd have significantly less knife crime in London. One type of crime and in one area of the country. BUT you'd still be left with drunk white mobs, Paedophiles, Serial killers, white men who rape old people (a very common and sick crime in the UK maily attributed to the British 'natives')and many other sexually deviant and violent crimes.
C, I hope you're not a white woman but if you are then you might just like to know that STATISTICALLY you are MORE LIKELY to be killed by a white deviant male than by a black teenager.
Serial killers, Much of the deviant sexual crimes like Necrophillia (people who have sex with corpses) and Paedophiles are almost always white crimes and we all know that the UK has its FAIR share of them.
In short, the UK has so much violent crime all over and the 2% of the population that are black surely cannot be responsible for ALL that crime !
Come to think of it, if all the black youth suddenly disappeared, all that would happen is that you'd have significantly less knife crime in London. One type of crime and in one area of the country. BUT you'd still be left with drunk white mobs, Paedophiles, Serial killers, white men who rape old people (a very common and sick crime in the UK maily attributed to the British 'natives')and many other sexually deviant and violent crimes.
C, I hope you're not a white woman but if you are then you might just like to know that STATISTICALLY you are MORE LIKELY to be killed by a white deviant male than by a black teenager.
Vortigern, London says...
11:32am Sun 13 Jul 08
Daily reports come flooding in of WHITE serial killers butchering Women? Every 20 years maybe....
Daily report of BLACK gang members murdering anyone who happens to look at them. A sad reality.
Completely worthless individuals who society tolerates solely because of their WHITE knight liberal guardians, who claim they are like they are because they are discriminated against. And not because they are worthless, lazy, uneducated, violent scum who would struggle to win a battle of wits against a rusty toaster.
Being completely inadequate to survive in a civilised culture, they revert to the most fundamental mechanics of any social structure: gang culture. Even here they fail, primates have risen above this; you donÂ’t see apes fuc$ing each other over because they are bored and lazy.
Daily report of BLACK gang members murdering anyone who happens to look at them. A sad reality.
Completely worthless individuals who society tolerates solely because of their WHITE knight liberal guardians, who claim they are like they are because they are discriminated against. And not because they are worthless, lazy, uneducated, violent scum who would struggle to win a battle of wits against a rusty toaster.
Being completely inadequate to survive in a civilised culture, they revert to the most fundamental mechanics of any social structure: gang culture. Even here they fail, primates have risen above this; you donÂ’t see apes fuc$ing each other over because they are bored and lazy.
anonymous, south east says...
5:23pm Mon 14 Jul 08
where are the street pastors in all of this?
Cordon: Police and forensics investigate the scene of the crime
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Latoya, london,england says...
6:47pm Thu 3 Jul 08