NHS moves forward to axe children's services (From Croydon Guardian)

BSBV moves forward to axe children's services in SW London

1:15pm Friday 6th July 2012 in News By Sophia Sleigh, Reporter

Queen Mary's Hospital for Children at St Helier Hospital

Health bosses are pushing forward with their plans to close three children’s wards in SW London.

NHS SW London's Better Services Better Value (BSBV) review into healthcare in the region today published formal recommendations to have a single children’s hospital in SW London based at St George’s Hospital in Tooting.

St Helier, Kingston and Croydon University hospitals are all set to lose their inpatient paediatric care as a result.

This will mean that St Helier Hospital’s 18-bed inpatient ward at its specialist children’s hospital could be lost.

Details of the BSBV plans first emerged two months ago.

If the plans are approved, the children’s hospital centred at St Georges will be supported by extended community services and three sites with short stay beds for children.

The review also recommended that each hospital with an A&E should have a senior doctor present 14 hours a day. At present, all four SW London hospitals have children’s beds but do not meet the requirement for senior doctor presence.

Each hospital with an A&E should have a dedicated children’s A&E open 24/7. There will be beds located in each hospital with an A&E where most children can be assessed and treated.

Children will be able to stay at these units for up to 24 hours. However if a child is very unwell or they need to stay in hospital longer than one day then they will be transferred to the specialist Children’s Hospital at St George’s.

Under the recommendations St Helier Hospital is also set to lose its A&E therefore children would have to be admitted to A&E’s at other hospitals in SW London.

The final recommendation made by the review is that more care for children and young people should be provided at home and in community settings rather than hospital, meaning investment will be required in children’s community services.

The proposals will go in front of the joint boards of SW London PCTs in September for approval.

Public consultation on the closures is due to start on September 17.

Comments(32)

kazza76 says...
2:15pm Fri 6 Jul 12

bloody fuming bring it on bsbv the fight is on!!!!!!!!!!

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theavengers says...
2:43pm Fri 6 Jul 12

A society who throws innocent children to the side isn't a civilized society. Children aren't valued at all these days. We should nuture and protect, not put in harms way. Those people making these decisions would be able to send their children and granchildren locally private if something horrible happened to them but what about all the rest of us taxpayers? What if we can't travel or possibly a child will die in route because every minute counts in an emergency. Our kids don't count? What is my NI paying for if not to protect my family? When money is put before life....how can they sleep at night? KARMA!!!!!!

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palmerpalmer81 says...
3:31pm Fri 6 Jul 12

just who are this of bunch of stupid people they are not living on then same planet as we are

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Danny Bhoy says...
4:50pm Fri 6 Jul 12

These people are local doctors, nurses and paediatricians. I just read the statement on their website and what they are arguing is that this new way of working would save more lives rather than cash That is what happened with stroke and major trauma services - I know because I opposed the changes at the time, but I have been proved wrong. Travelling a bit further to a more specialist service is more likely to save your life.

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Michael Pantlin says...
5:05pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Allocated 24 hours in a bed to get well or they are shunted on across London. Care at home? What is the nursing team going to move indoors with us or just pop in once a day so when we pop our clogs it's not registered as a hospital death? What do our two MPs have to say about this? What about the thousands of people who signed the petitions saying they want none of this? What exactly will be the purpose of the consultation when people continue to reply we've already told you we don't want any of this? Which bit of the BSBV wrecking crew exactly are you Danny Bhoy and have you any financial interest? You may have been brainwashed and become a born-again closure merchant but others remain free thinkers and know what they want for their children. Part of the staff problem is the ruddy EU again and their staff hours directive we should cut free from them.
BSBV will soon be disbanded having done their dirty work so you won't be able to get back at them when it all goes wrong. Good bloody riddance to BSBV.

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Danny Bhoy says...
5:27pm Fri 6 Jul 12

So because I read up on things and change my view based on the evidence I am part of the BSBC crew? What an utterly laughable claim. The reality is that someone close to me had life saving stroke care at St George's, as have hundreds of others, following changes with exactly the same logic as these. But as that doesn't fit some people's Luddite and hysterical agenda, the only way they can respond to my points is to try to slur me. Sad.

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Michael Pantlin says...
5:42pm Fri 6 Jul 12

The wonderful Bees Knees St. George's of course was in the news a few days ago for allowing a patient to die of thirst after the patient phoned the police for help who were turned away by the staff saying the patient was confused. So perhaps anyone who disagrees with BSBC/BSBV will be dismissed as confused too? A friend has just come out of St. George's where he had a heart valve repair. He said the service was good during the week but "rubbish" at the weekend. He said an 83 year old patient in the heart unit asked for his bed to be made because it had not been and he was uncomfortable. He was ignored. He also wanted to contact his wife who couldn't reach him and neither were into mobile phones and was not helped. "Luddite and hysterical agenda eh? Whose doing the Rentaquote now? Local folk are not hysterical they are just plain angry that their wishes for THEIR NHS are being pushed aside. That's sad. Danny Bhoy perhaps you would give us the benefit of your new found wisdom by replying to each of the questions I put in my previous post. I await to be educated by your superior intellect and knowledge.

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Danny Bhoy says...
5:58pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Service worse at the weekend? Isn't that one of the points the whole review is trying to address? My serious advice to local folk is to read the reports rather than the Sutton Guardian, which many people commenting here have clearly not done. You owe it to yourselves to find out about this stuff in an informed way and not rely on sensational articles written to sell papers.

My other advice is that just because someone disagrees with you, there is no need to attack them personally. My views are bass on my own experience and what I have read, if I come
over as acting superior I am sorry, I have no specialist knowledge of this I have just read the clinical reports and considered the evidence of stroke and trauma reforms.

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Danny Bhoy says...
6:00pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Based not bass! Autocorrect strikes again.

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Michael Pantlin says...
6:06pm Fri 6 Jul 12

How about the answers to the questions above viz
Care at home? What is the nursing team going to move indoors with us or just pop in once a day so when we pop our clogs it's not registered as a hospital death? What do our two MPs have to say about this? What about the thousands of people who signed the petitions saying they want none of this? What exactly will be the purpose of the consultation when people continue to reply we've already told you we don't want any of this? This "Luddite" for one wants answers.

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Danny Bhoy says...
6:12pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Well then read the reports? Write to the docs leading it? I am not an authority on any of this. But I do feel people should read up
on things that may answer their questions rather than just complaining.

I do sympathise as I took a similar view on stroke changes once and even when I did read u

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Danny Bhoy says...
6:13pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Sorry, was still a bit worried when I did read up on it. But I was proved wrong. Stroke care in London now is better than almost anywhere in UK

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lilacgeorge says...
7:36pm Fri 6 Jul 12

As a nurse (and mother) that works at said children's hospital, I think it is ridiculous & certainly DO NOT support this stupid idea...but then no-ones gonna listen to us! It will take a child to die before they realise it is a huge mistake!!!!!!!

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xeepo says...
9:41pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Absolutely disgusting and MORONIC idea...!

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exa_cordon says...
10:01pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Danny Bhoy wrote:
Sorry, was still a bit worried when I did read up on it. But I was proved wrong. Stroke care in London now is better than almost anywhere in UK

i'd have you know that a number of stroke patients are not getting the care they need cos St Georges does not always have the capacity needed and the other hospitals have had to stop their stroke services

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kazza76 says...
11:58pm Fri 6 Jul 12

instead of bickering about who said what try finding out the real facts that the reason they want to close these services is to make way for a state of the art surgical unit so by getting rid of a&e,maternity and childrens services they deem this viable which is ridiculous because what most people fail to realise is that while kingston st georges and croydon are deemed to be saved they are gong to be over loaded with all of st heliers patients and if people are to have elective surgery they will have to travel to st heliers for it so the bsbv need to get things in perspective also all these decisions were made before a financial assessment was done, i have been attending the meetings and i am part of the save st helier campaign we are holding a family funday and picnic for the event on 8th of september opposite the hospital on the green all are welcome 12-4 please come along sign a petition and show your support also join us on our page on facebook. save st helier maternity and a&e.

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Michael Pantlin says...
2:58am Sat 7 Jul 12

kazza76 wrote:
instead of bickering about who said what try finding out the real facts that the reason they want to close these services is to make way for a state of the art surgical unit so by getting rid of a&e,maternity and childrens services they deem this viable which is ridiculous because what most people fail to realise is that while kingston st georges and croydon are deemed to be saved they are gong to be over loaded with all of st heliers patients and if people are to have elective surgery they will have to travel to st heliers for it so the bsbv need to get things in perspective also all these decisions were made before a financial assessment was done, i have been attending the meetings and i am part of the save st helier campaign we are holding a family funday and picnic for the event on 8th of september opposite the hospital on the green all are welcome 12-4 please come along sign a petition and show your support also join us on our page on facebook. save st helier maternity and a&e.

Thanks for posting details of the Save St. Helier Picnic Funday Event kazza76. Unless I'm immobilised stuck in bed on pain killers from the regular treatment I get from wonderful St. Helier as I am at the moment I will be there on my mobility scooter and at any other demo event as I have always done. Would be even more of a funday if we were allowed to spit roast the BSBV people who came up with this *hit along with the remote politicians and civil servants at the DOH responsible for driving this destruction.

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Michael Pantlin says...
3:02am Sat 7 Jul 12

With patients travelling many miles more to seek help and others doing the same to reach their planned operation and staff working more in the community it's looking like the NHS staff and it's patients will in future be found stuck in the SW London traffic glue. State of the art bawls up.

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Michael Pantlin says...
3:14am Sat 7 Jul 12

exa_cordon wrote:

Danny Bhoy wrote:
Sorry, was still a bit worried when I did read up on it. But I was proved wrong. Stroke care in London now is better than almost anywhere in UK
i'd have you know that a number of stroke patients are not getting the care they need cos St Georges does not always have the capacity needed and the other hospitals have had to stop their stroke services

Quite right exa_cordon. Friends who've been there have told me of three to four hour waits at St. George's A&E and that the weekend care on the cardiac ward is "rubbish" both recent reports. That's without the additional 213,000 patient load from St. Helier's catchment area. I don't buy this doctors spread too thinly so move them to St. George's. All of the staff are busy all the time so how will it help when you move a few doctors and then follow them with thousands more patients?
What a nightmare if you are very sick, find it agony to move and then after creeping through the traffic you sit for hours. It's obvious the already cut number of beds is going to be cut further so the part of the quart that won't fit into the pint pot will be discharged home where they will pay by the hour to get their basic care from homecare popping in a for a few minutes. Deaths at home or in the back of ambulances in the traffic will not appear in the statistics as hospital deaths. Those who cannot get their care in the reduced system will no doubt at some point be offered expensive private care if they can find or borrow the money. It's not just A&E, Maternity and Children's Services going from St. Helier and Childrens' services from Croydon and Kingston but also most of the essential diagnostic Pathology Services from them all. In other hospitals Pathology services have been privatised, The Fat Cats in their stripey suits are preparing to emerge from the woodwork I bet.

[quote][p][bold]exa_cordon[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Danny Bhoy[/bold] wrote: Sorry, was still a bit worried when I did read up on it. But I was proved wrong. Stroke care in London now is better than almost anywhere in UK[/p][/quote]i'd have you know that a number of stroke patients are not getting the care they need cos St Georges does not always have the capacity needed and the other hospitals have had to stop their stroke services[/p][/quote]Quite right exa_cordon. Friends who've been there have told me of three to four hour waits at St. George's A&E and that the weekend care on the cardiac ward is "rubbish" both recent reports. That's without the additional 213,000 patient load from St. Helier's catchment area. I don't buy this doctors spread too thinly so move them to St. George's. All of the staff are busy all the time so how will it help when you move a few doctors and then follow them with thousands more patients? What a nightmare if you are very sick, find it agony to move and then after creeping through the traffic you sit for hours. It's obvious the already cut number of beds is going to be cut further so the part of the quart that won't fit into the pint pot will be discharged home where they will pay by the hour to get their basic care from homecare popping in a for a few minutes. Deaths at home or in the back of ambulances in the traffic will not appear in the statistics as hospital deaths. Those who cannot get their care in the reduced system will no doubt at some point be offered expensive private care if they can find or borrow the money. It's not just A&E, Maternity and Children's Services going from St. Helier and Childrens' services from Croydon and Kingston but also most of the essential diagnostic Pathology Services from them all. In other hospitals Pathology services have been privatised, The Fat Cats in their stripey suits are preparing to emerge from the woodwork I bet. Michael Pantlin

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Michael Pantlin says...
3:25am Sat 7 Jul 12

Just heard on the radio the Government is bringing out the decade delayed paper on reform of the social services vital care of the elderly. A must to watch as we won't be getting our hospital beds after the approaching local cutbacks here and everywhere. View from one of the top politicians is that they might kick it in to the long grass for a 3rd time. Remember Sutherland Report 2000 and Dilmot report last year both shelved so they could go on stripping sick and disabled people of their savings and homes. I wonder if the Government will pass it to our local photo opportunity Care Minister to deliver a cop out?

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Agamemnon & Cassandra says...
7:02pm Sat 7 Jul 12

"The final recommendation made by the review is that more care for children and young people should be provided at home and in community settings rather than hospital".

That conclusion has come about because they need to save money. Do you remember the Governments "Care in the Community" initiative in the 1980's, supposedly all about quality of life? What have we got now? All the Day Centres being closed and disabled and Downs Syndrome people forced to commute everywhere by public transport to their obvious discomfort.

The NHS is top heavy with incompetent hospital Managers and useless officials, not least at Kingston. Perhaps if we got rid of them and employed more doctors and nurses we would all be better off.

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exa_cordon says...
8:32pm Sat 7 Jul 12

be also aware that directors at croydon are more interested in saving money causing the hospital infrastructure there to slowly crumble; together with st georges already unable to handle the workload - leaves Kingston in a bit of a potential mess !

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kazza76 says...
12:03am Sun 8 Jul 12

like i said guys you are all welcome please keep signing the petitions and showing your support. bring it on bsbv we are waiting for you nd are going to fight you al the way t the bitter end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!

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kazza76 says...
12:03am Sun 8 Jul 12

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Michael Pantlin says...
12:53am Sun 8 Jul 12

Re St. George's Hospital which allegedly will give us better care when the politicians and bureaucrats have downgraded our excellent St. Helier District General Hospital
http://www.dailymail

.co.uk/news/article-

2170267/My-17-hours-

hell-hospital-patien

t-died-thirst-Left-u

nattended-agony-writ

ers-account-ordeal-N

HS-centre-excellence

.html

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The Cardinal says...
9:44pm Sun 8 Jul 12

Where are Sutton's political parties to stop this terrible decision from going ahead?

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Danny Bhoy says...
6:40am Mon 9 Jul 12

The facts on strokes speak for themselves. London's outcomes have been totally transformed from one of worst performing areas in country to about the best. This is an actual fact ough, not some emotive claptrap, so maybe best ignored in the rush to have everyone on our doorstep and spread the doctors too thinly, which costs lives.

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Danny Bhoy says...
6:43am Mon 9 Jul 12

Everything on our doorstep I meant. Btw other hospitals still provide stroke services, a hyper acute unit is what they have at St George's, to treat serious strokes. Their record is actually fantastic, as with all such units in London. Happy to debate with anyone but they should at least consider the facts. Or maybe they get in the way of the fundays etc?

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kazza76 says...
3:50pm Mon 9 Jul 12

The Sutton and Merton MP's are all involved in the campaign and I am in regular contact with them regarding the planning of the funday and picnic. please also write to your gps and ask them to get behind us, write to your mp's, sign petitions both online and in the shops around rosehill, join our facebook page!!!!

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Sameer the First says...
8:38pm Tue 10 Jul 12

I don't know a lot about BSBV, but I do think Danny has a point and people should read the reports before commenting. And I don't like the way he has been bullied by at least one other user here. Abusing people who disagree with you and questioning their integrity? That way lies totalitarianism. Keep posting mate, it's interesting to hear another voice in the debate to be quite honest!

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Danny Bhoy says...
10:22pm Thu 12 Jul 12

Bless you, kind sir!

I do despair of people playing the man not the ball, but I have said my piece about this. The point remains that the people shouting loudest don't seem to have even read the reports from local doctors, there is a great deal of hysteria and bandwagon jumping but very little understanding of what the changes are about. The simple reason for that is that people are shouting rather than listening, ranting rather than reading. I feel like I have made my points in this debate, but until people actually consider the evidence, there is little point listening to their arguments. If I was a doctor who believed the BSBV changes would save people's lives, I would not be inclined to consider the opinions of people who can't even take the time to read why I and others think change is needed.

And really, why should I waste time talking to people about it when they have made up their minds without considering the facts? It is a very poor campaign that doesn't even look at what it is meant to be arguing against.

Politicians are being opportunistic and cynical when they know these proposals will save lives, the local press think a campaign against will sell newspapers and those shouting the loudest don't have a clue about what the reports that have led to this recommendation say. It's an unholy trinity and while Sameer's comments are flattering, I am reminded of the old adage: Never argue with a fool, people mig not know the difference.

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andyacton says...
10:23am Fri 13 Jul 12

I personally think it is about time they did this. St Helier has a very poor standard of care across all areas and is bleding money needlessly through poor management so why should we, the tax payer, fund such a shambles. They have tried improvements and this hasn't worked. I would rather use a hospital further away that can actually care for my children rather than one that can't. Why would anyone want to see a hospital that sends home children with Cancer telling the parents that it is a cold or one that leaves your eldery relatives laying in their own bodily waste for a day. Those of you that want this to stay open needto wake up and consider how much this shocking standard of care is actually costing you!!!

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